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Heineken Cup Semi Final- Saracens v Clermont

well I'm the first to defend running rugby and open ball, but here's the thing. The Saracens just didn't have what it takes to beat Clermont at their game. No team in Europe can, and the Saracens aren't even one of the great great sides in Europe. What were they supposed to do ? "Defense wins championships" has always been the m.o. in the NBA, and it's obviously true in Rugby too. Any team sport. Tonight was a lesson of that adage.
At least the Saracens displayed some attacking form today with at least two very nice tries out of their SIX, and their defense was remarkable. Rough defense, contesting every ball, good organization, impenetrable. Gotta love it.

Nobody should have anything to complain about the Sarries tonight. If excellent defense is boring to watch, then what can they tell you ?! They played to their strengths, and brilliantly at it, not well, *brilliantly*. A huge performance and over 80 minutes, not less. I wish Clermont had done that to the Saracens in stead, and so does every single person backing Clermont.

And about tomorrow's game, it ain't going to be prettier. It's Toulon, vs fkng Munster. Breakdown is going to shake the Earth so badly citizens in Japan will randomly start yelling "Goh'zillaaaaaaaah !!!!!"
Now Toulon can score tries, and some amazing ones. And I like Munster's style too, gritty, hard earned tries. Great organization...it's just a different style I've grown to love.

But defense is key especially in elimination games where teams who play conservatively are the smarter ones. And Clermont thought they could just come in with their flashy yellow suits on and their big stars and go wide and watch Nalaga and Sivi and Fofana beat 2 million defenders alone. Brickwall. Bam. None of that.
They lacked humility and heart, and should've been prepared for the bar fight this was, an they weren't. 46-6.
 
Tallshort said:
Dont want to know you. Boring ****
Click to expand...

Well at least I can see that some posters here are intelligent enough to understand what I'm driving at, so, if you can't keep up, perhaps you just need to put me on ignore. I won't be offended, in fact, I hope that you do.
 
Big Ewis said:
well I'm the first to defend running rugby and open ball, but here's the thing. The Saracens just didn't have what it takes to beat Clermont at their game. No team in Europe can, and the Saracens aren't even one of the great great sides in Europe. What were they supposed to do ? "Defense wins championships" has always been the m.o. in the NBA, and it's obviously true in Rugby too. Any team sport. Tonight was a lesson of that adage.
At least the Saracens displayed some attacking form today with at least two very nice tries out of their SIX, and their defense was remarkable. Rough defense, contesting every ball, good organization, impenetrable. Gotta love it.

Nobody should have anything to complain about the Sarries tonight. If excellent defense is boring to watch, then what can they tell you ?! They played to their strengths, and brilliantly at it, not well, *brilliantly*. A huge performance and over 80 minutes, not less. I wish Clermont had done that to the Saracens in stead, and so does every single person backing Clermont.

And about tomorrow's game, it ain't going to be prettier. It's Toulon, vs fkng Munster. Breakdown is going to shake the Earth so badly citizens in Japan will randomly start yelling "Goh'zillaaaaaaaah !!!!!"
Now Toulon can score tries, and some amazing ones. And I like Munster's style too, gritty, hard earned tries. Great organization...it's just a different style I've grown to love.

But defense is key especially in elimination games where teams who play conservatively are the smarter ones. And Clermont thought they could just come in with their flashy yellow suits on and their big stars and go wide and watch Nalaga and Sivi and Fofana beat 2 million defenders alone. Brickwall. Bam. None of that.
They lacked humility and heart, and should've been prepared for the bar fight this was, an they weren't. 46-6.
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.............and all that is what is p......ing me off about rugby at the moment.

Defence, defence defence.......it may (and does) win games but it will not win/retain fans and football (a la Italy of old) have learnt that attack brings spectators back to the games and even win trophies.

Unfortunately with the defence coaches now the most important members of the coaching teams the game is going nowhere......at least to this old fart!

Goodness, we could be back to the Biarritz winning method of sticking it up the jumper and bore the opposition to death!!!
 
What are you driving at? English and French rugby is rubbish and its ruled by a bunch of power hungry meglomanics blah blah blah its easy to keep up because the message is always the same.
 
Big Ewis said:
well I'm the first to defend running rugby and open ball, but here's the thing. The Saracens just didn't have what it takes to beat Clermont at their game.
Click to expand...

Either you didn't really mean to post that bit, or it was a very clever bit of irony on your part.
 
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Tallshort said:
What are you driving at? English and French rugby is rubbish and its ruled by a bunch of power hungry meglomanics blah blah blah its easy to keep up because the message is always the same.
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You really don't get it do you?

Never mind, I can't be bothered with you
 
I know we aren't the best attacking team in the world we did win the game....
Scoring 6 tries in the process
Against Clermont
I'M SORRY WE COULDN'T PUT ON MORE OF AN ATTACKING DISPLAY
WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US :cryy:
 
well again, I'm redundant but the Sarries aren't responsible for gaining more people to the Rugby cause, they just had to focus on a game, on making sure their scoreline was higher than Clermont's at the 80' mark, and I salute holding the latter to no try and just 6 points just as much as their scoring 6 tries and 46 points.

The teams who beat the All-Blacks for e.g. are the ones who limit them. Unless you're the French (1999 and 2000 examples) where you score a ton yourself and make sure it's higher than the AB's score. It's always been like that and it'll always be like that. And teams will always attempt to score themselves of course, at least multiple teams will.

I'll be honest, I couldn't stand the England style for a long time and it had nothing to do with being Fr, but they've changed this year in particular and I salute that. I think as long as teams don't just hang around waiting for penalties, only play in rucks, discipline and kicking - the sport should be fine.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Big Ewis View Post

well I'm the first to defend running rugby and open ball, but here's the thing. The Saracens just didn't have what it takes to beat Clermont at their game.
Either you didn't really mean to post that bit, or it was a very clever bit of irony on you part.
Click to expand...
No it is true, we are not as good at open attacking rugby and we knew going in that if it got loose we lose. Simple as. We kept it structured and not many teams can keep with us when we make it a tacklefest, kick and chase, put it in the corner and just like a Boa constrictor squeeze the life out of you. Then we add the points when teams can't handle us, look at Harlequins, Tigers, Connacht and Clermont it is all the same gameplan- have the ball we beat you up then last 20 minutes we score 15+ points.
 
smartcooky said:
You really don't get it do you?

Never mind, I can't be bothered with you
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Yes we all get it and its boring, I cannot be bothered with you but you keep reappearing sprouting the same old ****. English rugby this, French rugby that, you offer nothing but a load of half arsed out of date styreo types to justify your obvious dislike of English and French rugby. Your more obvious than the sun and less interesting than the back of a fag packet.
 
All i can add is that the Sarries outplayed and out thought Clermont, for a team deemed to be boring, 6 tries to me is not that boring, Clermont were not allowed to play their game they were drowned by a ferocious defence, which like it or not wins games, as long as you have an attack that goes with it..... and Sarries certainly did excellent handling with fast hands, and around the rucks and mauls they were the Kings, if anything their scrum was not brilliant, but does that really matter if you score 6-0 tries.Must admit i have never seen Clermont play that badly but there's always a first time for everything. Nigel Owens harsh but correct in his decisions........sometimes the rub of the green just goes one way thats life .....Sarries deserve their victory now for the Battle of the Bulge this afternoon.
 
I think Smartcooky is being a tad misunderstood.
It was highly visible yesterday that when Clermont suffered three quick fire tries, they had a brief period of flinging it around to score tries and when that didn't work they backed off and let their heads drop. Now that's a testament to Sarries defence and while not aesthetically pleasing its effective.
I think this was the original point and the rest all sparked from here.
 
Groundhog said:
I think Smartcooky is being a tad misunderstood.
It was highly visible yesterday that when Clermont suffered three quick fire tries, they had a brief period of flinging it around to score tries and when that didn't work they backed off and let their heads drop. Now that's a testament to Sarries defence and while not aesthetically pleasing its effective.
I think this was the original point and the rest all sparked from here.
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Misunderstood is an understatement!

Tallshort completely misrepresented what I said and in so doing, created a strawman which he set about attacking.

Most here get it even if Tallshort doesn't!
 
I thought it was patently obvious that Clermont, once the game was gone, coasted the last quarter.
 
I think the attendance issue is a bit disappointed but not exactly unexpected. Twickenham isn't a good stadium to travel too at all, Sarries have a much smaller fan base than most people think (they're obsession with playing games at big venues and drawing people in with cheap tickets brings a lot of casual fans to the games) and Clermont don't have a big profile in England. Last year the Sarries v Toulon game was much better attended, largely due to Toulon's profile and the presence of Jonny in their team. Sarries should have played at Allianz park IMO.


TRF_SelimNiai said:
I thought it was patently obvious that Clermont, once the game was gone, coasted the last quarter.
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Agree with that totally. But I think thats more because Clermont do that when they're losing away from home rather than because they're a Top 14 side who have more than an eye on the domestic run in.
 
gaston le gaff said:
All i can add is that the Sarries outplayed and out thought Clermont, for a team deemed to be boring, 6 tries to me is not that boring, Clermont were not allowed to play their game they were drowned by a ferocious defence, which like it or not wins games, as long as you have an attack that goes with it..... and Sarries certainly did excellent handling with fast hands, and around the rucks and mauls they were the Kings, if anything their scrum was not brilliant, but does that really matter if you score 6-0 tries.Must admit i have never seen Clermont play that badly but there's always a first time for everything. Nigel Owens harsh but correct in his decisions........sometimes the rub of the green just goes one way thats life .....Sarries deserve their victory now for the Battle of the Bulge this afternoon.
Click to expand...

I thought Sarries were outstanding, and really, Clermont looked as if they were in a holding pattern, just barely doing a containing job, but Sarries just blew them away. Sometimes you can get a match like that, that just inexplicably comes out of nowhere.

Back in the 2002 Super 12, in the final round before the semis, there was a match between The Crusaders and the Waratahs. It was 1st v 2nd on the table; the Crusaders were unbeaten and the Waratahs had lost only two matches, close losses away to the Reds (by 7) and the Blues (by 2). Both teams had similar points differences (Crusaders +130, Waratahs +128), both had scored about the same number of tries (41 v 38) but the Waratahs had the second best defence, conceding only 19 tries in 10 matches compared with the Crusaders' 26. Everything pointed to a tight, top of the table clash as an aperitif to the semis. Nothing that happened beforehand gave any clue to what was going to happen next.

At half time, the Crusaders led 63-0, and they went on to win 96-19. It was just one of those games; nearly every 50/50 pass stuck and those that didn't went backwards to another red player's hand, every bounce of the ball went their way, everything they tried came off. Now while that Crusaders team was arguably the best Super 12 team ever (the only team to finish a season with a 100% record), the poor old Waratahs were really not that far behind them, but on that night they simply couldn't take a trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-fuHGBfKCI
 
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I think Allianz is set up to have expansion down the line - they aren't selling out so it's not an issue at the moment.

Also, Vicarage Road was a dump, a move away from there was needed.
 

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