Funny really when you think that Castres, apparently after a big party in the week before the game, lost to Bayonne in the final game of the normal season and only secured 6th spot virtue of Toulon beating Stade Franglais..........just!!!
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Heineken Cup 2014 - The Final
- Thread starter Tony Manx
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Saracens the lesser of two evils, but don't really want to support either.
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People wrote us off before the Clermont game .......
No one is writing you off................juts think you will be beaten!!
gaston le gaff
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i think it will be a lot closer than people think, Toulon will be ready for this probably without Wilkco as he will be playing the TOP 14 final, i think Toulon by little but there maybe even extra time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ewis
Hall of Fame
good...answer !well we really do have to have a look at the XV's to call a final...
And actually, Wilko will be playing those two finals indeed, but as the last games of his career. He officially announced his retirement at the end of this season. Surely, he'll be lifting at least one trophy and like I said I think it'll be the H Cup again. A HUGE, historic moment in Rugby.
Big Ewis
Hall of Fame
interesting notions from Mark McCall (Saracens headcoach):
"I think Toulon are a brilliant rugby team.
"There's this common view out there of how to beat them, just to move their big men around and play with tempo, and everyone who has done that has come up short.
"So you've got to have other plans and find ways of stressing them, taking away their energy and moving their big men around in a different kind of way.
"So hopefully we'll be able to execute some things to do just that.
"I'm unbelievably impressed with what Toulon have put together, they've gathered together incredibly competitive people, all high achieving world stars.
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9322046,00.html
"I think Toulon are a brilliant rugby team.
"There's this common view out there of how to beat them, just to move their big men around and play with tempo, and everyone who has done that has come up short.
"So you've got to have other plans and find ways of stressing them, taking away their energy and moving their big men around in a different kind of way.
"So hopefully we'll be able to execute some things to do just that.
"I'm unbelievably impressed with what Toulon have put together, they've gathered together incredibly competitive people, all high achieving world stars.
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9322046,00.html
gaston le gaff
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Its always the same, the opposition starts by saying that the Toulon team is difficult to beat you need plans A,B,and C how often does this media hype come around 2 days before the final!!!!!!!!!! McCall sounds just like Boujellal on a bad day, if they were to keep quite say nothing and produce the goods on the day they would look so much better in their after match press reports!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe they need the sams phyco analyst, that Rooney is listening to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Am I the only one thinking here that this might not be the fairytale ending for Johnny as he would like?
How often is it in sport that a player gets the proper farewell in his last game?
How often is it in sport that a player gets the proper farewell in his last game?
Two quasi South African teams in the final. I'll certainly be watching but I can't pick between them (favorite or winner).
gaston le gaff
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Anybodies game really, both sides evenly matched i think it will be one of those on the day sort of games, good bounce, little luck, ref decisions but it could well be a great game both teams attack and defend like their lives depend on it!!!
This is not Jonnies last game there is still the TOP 14 FINAL next Sat.
This is not Jonnies last game there is still the TOP 14 FINAL next Sat.
Big Ewis
Hall of Fame
oh, Toulon are winning the H Cup. But it's Castres in the Top 14 final I'd worry about if I were a Toulon fan (like Tony...).
The thing is Toulon would never underestimate a side in a final. The Saracens are a lot less intimidating than a Clermont or Leinster, so most teams would naturally underestimate the Saracens, no matter what they tell the press. But Wilkinson, Laporte, the rest of the guys really understand they'll have to play this like they're starving and the underdogs. They'll have to produce the game of the season to take this one, there are no shortcuts.
Unfortunately (for some), this match is most likely going to be the dirtiest, ugliest thing we'll have seen all H Cup season:
The Saracens know they need to defend like crazy and will be playing a whole lot of tactical kicking and territory, a whole lot.
While Toulon will themselves be in playoff mode and play similarly to the past couple of performances they displayed and will be a whole lot less ball in hand, running, attacking and will themselves be kicking that ball aplenty and will be looking to pile up precious 3-pointers from the ever-reliable Wilkoboot.
I do believe this game can open up after a super intense first 30minutes, and if Toulon get a good feel for the Saracens and a bit of a lead, they'll start coming out of their shell and will implement the Giteau, Bastareaud, Habana, Armitage, Mitchell a little bit more. And they've got the precision to initiate and complete full movements.
For the Saracens' attack, no way Toulon will play the sort of defense Clermont did, nor will bend so easily mentally. Impossible. I do see the Sarries scoring though, possibly.
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A big problem for Saracens is an inability to chase a lead, where as Toulon has some great backs capable of scoring tries. If Saracens get the lead we wont have an easy time keeping it, Toulon have the MASS and ability to get through us, If Toulon manage to get in front we might not be able to breach their line. Anyway our team has been announced -
Saracens Team
15.Goode
14.Ashton
13.Bosch
12.Barritt
11.Strettle
10.Farrell
9.Wigglesworth
1.Vunipola
2.Brits
3.Stevens
4.Borthwick (c)
5.Hargreaves
6.Brown
7.BURGER
8.Vunipola
Subs
16.George
17.Barrington
18.Johnston
19.Botha
20.Wray
21.de Kock
22.Hodgson
23.Wyles
Big Ewis
Hall of Fame
wee-whew, here we go:
RC Toulon :
15. Delon Armitage; 14. Drew Mitchell, 13. Mathieu Bastareaud, 12. Matt Giteau, 11. Bryan Habana; 10. Jonny Wilkinson (c), 9. Sebastien Tillous-Borde; 1. Xavier Chiocci, 2. Craig Burden, 3. Carl Hayman, 4. Bakkies Botha, 5. Danie Rossouw, 6. Juan Smith, 7. Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, 8. Steffon Armitage.
16. Jean-Charles Orioli, 17. Alexandre Menini, 18. Martin Castrogiovanni, 19. Ali Williams, 20. Virgile Bruni, 21. Maxime Mermoz, 22. Michael Claassens, 23. Jocelino Suta.
Saffycen, you may be right. And, I'm a little too dismissive about the Sarries, although I REALLY think Toulon will win, they could very well come up with the win. They've got some really nice pieces in that 23 themselves, I mean a third row of Brown+Burger+Billy Vunipola ?? dayyyyyuummmm.
Yes they got lucky against Ulster, but apart from that they didn't make it to the Heineken Cup final as a mystery. They're a damn fine squad. No reason they shouldn't grind out a win here in the final, anything can happen in 80min. If this were like the NBA where a team needs to win 4 matches in a finals series, I'd give the Saracens no chance. But on one afternoon, 80min: they've certainly got what it takes.
I'd go about 70/30 Toulon. Seems fair ?
Saffycen, you may be right. And, I'm a little too dismissive about the Sarries, although I REALLY think Toulon will win, they could very well come up with the win. They've got some really nice pieces in that 23 themselves, I mean a third row of Brown+Burger+Billy Vunipola ?? dayyyyyuummmm.
Yes they got lucky against Ulster, but apart from that they didn't make it to the Heineken Cup final as a mystery. They're a damn fine squad. No reason they shouldn't grind out a win here in the final, anything can happen in 80min. If this were like the NBA where a team needs to win 4 matches in a finals series, I'd give the Saracens no chance. But on one afternoon, 80min: they've certainly got what it takes.
I'd go about 70/30 Toulon. Seems fair ?
Joe_and_Barf
Academy Player
Nah man, i'd go for 60/40 Toulon, literally Sarries are on fire, Wilkinson will destroy Farrell though
Big Ewis
Hall of Fame
ok ok ok....we can negotiate here now...I'll give you 5, you give me 5...how does 65/35 sound ?? Alright, DEAL !
I disagree with Wilko and Farrell though. Farrell ain't the teen he was last year. Not in this H Cup, and not when he's wearing the Rose jersey. He's developed consistently throughout his career so far, and has toned way down on the immature temperament too. His passing is better, quicker and still accurate, he kicks better, he tackles hard and even gets his nose in the rucks. And Wilko isn't as good as last year, the old bull is finally slowing down.
It'll be a much more even battle I think, although Wilko still has the experience and that'll help Toulon in the finer details of the tactical landscape, but Farrell isn't a naive kid anymore.
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**** Botha is back for Toulon 
I was hoping for a Suta-Rossouw combo as I can see us really attacking their lineout but we wont have as much of an advantage as we would have without Botha there. Anyway key match ups -
Front row v Front row- Toulon has a massive scrummaging advantage over us and it will be a long day in the scrum. Carrying wise Brits and Vunipola are great at loose carries but not so great in the tight, Toulon have big lumps to run tight
Second row- Lineout wise a we have an advantage but carrying wise we are massively less, work rate and tackling I think we are better off.
Back row- Burger v Lobbe both great players but at the moment Burger has too be the player here, crazy tackling and work rate. Brown v Smith very different players smith big carrying almost an 8 really where as Brown is a great open runner and tackler, Smith gets the nod though. Vunipola v Armitage very, very different Armitage is really an 7 but has played well at 8, Vunipola is a carrying machine and will be the big guy for us this game.
Backs- ****
I was hoping for a Suta-Rossouw combo as I can see us really attacking their lineout but we wont have as much of an advantage as we would have without Botha there. Anyway key match ups -Front row v Front row- Toulon has a massive scrummaging advantage over us and it will be a long day in the scrum. Carrying wise Brits and Vunipola are great at loose carries but not so great in the tight, Toulon have big lumps to run tight
Second row- Lineout wise a we have an advantage but carrying wise we are massively less, work rate and tackling I think we are better off.
Back row- Burger v Lobbe both great players but at the moment Burger has too be the player here, crazy tackling and work rate. Brown v Smith very different players smith big carrying almost an 8 really where as Brown is a great open runner and tackler, Smith gets the nod though. Vunipola v Armitage very, very different Armitage is really an 7 but has played well at 8, Vunipola is a carrying machine and will be the big guy for us this game.
Backs- ****
Very well put. However much Sarries' backline has improved this season it is still in no why comparible to the strength in the pack and looks very uninspired next to that Toulon line up. Why Chris Wyles is on the bench is beyond me, although Barritt and Bosch have made a half decent centre partnership I guess.
Toulon by 7 I think. Sarries now have the power to compete up front but they're not going to dominate Toulon the way they've bullied almost everyone else this season.
gaston le gaff
First XV
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An awful lot said when maybe an intercept try may win the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
everything else just goes out of the window, but who will throw the pass and who will intercept and race under the posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats more difficult!!!!!!!!!!!!!
everything else just goes out of the window, but who will throw the pass and who will intercept and race under the posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats more difficult!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ewis
Hall of Fame
that's right...we'll just have to see, won't we ?! :lol: I'm really excited about this one because I've followed both teams all year (esp. Toulon) at least in their H Cup campaign, and it's just so delicious when you know exactly what both teams bring, put them in a final's setting, and have no clue how it could go. I mean, who the hell thought the Sarries would ANNIHILATE Clermont that bad, absolutely nobody in the universe (and beyond), that's for sure. And like I said, it would be a very, very valiant effort but not a monumental upset if the Sarries won that game.
And indeed Saffycen, both teams are widely different in their individual matchups. Hadn't noticed until you broke it down, but even in the backs, widely different. And yet, they'll both play an ultra-conservative style anyhow !
