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H Cup Final: ASM Clermont v RC Toulon

I'm sobering now and realising Delon Armitage has a HEC medal. DAMN.
But on serious note congrats to Toulon but that issue of Clermont loosing big games isn't just in Europe but domestic too. And agreed Saint Matt for all there money Clermont still lack a top 10 which has cost them in past b
 
I'm sobering now and realising Delon Armitage has a HEC medal. DAMN.
But on serious note congrats to Toulon but that issue of Clermont loosing big games isn't just in Europe but domestic too. And agreed Saint Matt for all there money Clermont still lack a top 10 which has cost them in past b

That 10 scored won them 7 points. Nearly 14. And also that statement ignores the fact that his performances have helped them get to this stage and lead the Top 14 with some impressive victories. He was better than Wilkinson today. To say he was why they lost is wrong. It was the breakdown where Toulon won the match with many penalties throughout the game, that wasn't Brock James fault, didn't miss a load of kicks either this time. Bringing on Skrela wasn't clever by Clermont though, there is a reason he will be playing Pro D2 next season ...

Still though, people will always apply too much praise/criticism to the one position as always. Much like how in the media's match reports Wilkinson will be hailed for his conversion, but Fernández Lobbe will likely less mentioned for his turnover that allowed him to get that in the first place.

Also would just like to add, Delon Armitage is a twat.
 
Clermont are still lacking a real general at 10.

Indeed - there had been talk of Sexton going to Clermont a while back - which had me worried - they'd clean up with him directing traffic instead of Brock "when is the next collapse coming" James.
 
That 10 scored won them 7 points. Nearly 14. And also that statement ignores the fact that his performances have helped them get to this stage and lead the Top 14 with some impressive victories. He was better than Wilkinson today. To say he was why they lost is wrong. It was the breakdown where Toulon won the match with many penalties throughout the game, that wasn't Brock James fault, didn't miss a load of kicks either this time. Bringing on Skrela wasn't clever by Clermont though, there is a reason he will be playing Pro D2 next season ...

Still though, people will always apply too much praise/criticism to the one position as always. Much like how in the media's match reports Wilkinson will be hailed for his conversion, but Fernández Lobbe will likely less mentioned for his turnover that allowed him to get that in the first place.

Also would just like to add, Delon Armitage is a twat.
Never said he was the cause of todays loss and he scored 5 points. And as you always say with ROG duck maybe he gets extra credit because of having an excellent pack but Brock James is not a top 10 that is needed for HEC success. Yes he gets by as he's with 1 of best squads in world club rugby but Clermont need a 10 in the world class category. The man who was best and in my opinion made James try was Rougerie. And well watching from behind the goals (not best view) I thought he was best back for Clermont considering very little rugby he's played lately.
And again I wouldn't hail Wilkinson for the conversion as it was on a good side for him (albeit a great kick) but Clermont didn't have the player at 10 (Skrela or James) to be smart and play it smart. There's a big difference from not playing poorly and playing superb team rugby. If roles were reversed Wilkinson in my opinion would've played a totally different game.
And while I don't rate James as highly as some I'd ask if he is the much better player then shouldn't Vern Cotter be asked some serious questions.
 
Indeed - there had been talk of Sexton going to Clermont a while back - which had me worried - they'd clean up with him directing traffic instead of Brock "when is the next collapse coming" James.

Explain how he collapsed? As always people over emphasising the 10's importance on this result. Was not like Leinster 2010 when he missed all those kicks.

Also I bet some of the people here don't actually realise when they are making these comments that he has saved Clermont's home streak twice this season with last minute kicks. If Wilkinson or ROG did either of those people would be praising their nerve to the rooftops (and makes it even odder Skrela came on), and that's not even mentioning his playmaking. Yet that awful day in Leinster and now people blame every tight Clermont loss on Brock James.

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Explain how he collapsed? As always people over emphasising the 10's importance on this result. Was not like Leinster 2010 when he missed all those kicks.

Also I bet some of the people here don't actually realise when they are making these comments that he has saved Clermont's home streak twice this season with last minute kicks. If Wilkinson or ROG did either of those people would be praising their nerve to the rooftops (and makes it even odder Skrela came on), and that's not even mentioning his playmaking. Yet that awful day in Leinster and now people blame every tight Clermont loss on Brock James.

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It's not that though as I said there a big difference between not being poor and being a class act. Your clips are not in knockout rugby so pressure isn't as intense but the point being made is Clermont need a worldclass 10 no an average one.
Brock James has been with an excellent Clermont team for 7 years now and in a pivotal position you will always be 1 of the people held responsible and (while not all James fault) 1 Amlin in 2007 and 1 Top 14 in 2010 is an embarrassing record considering their talent. As in they lost a few finals before they won and James is responsible in his part. As is Vern Cotter who I think is overhyped, when you consider his assistant left for a "lesser club" (not my words) on a lesser budget and won 2 HEC's and an Amlin and realistically could've been 3 HEC's if injury wasn't an issue
 
Happy for Toulon, gutted for Clermont. Both teams deserved to win. Better team took it.
 
I have not looked at the Forum comments but here are mine


  1. Clermont were let down in the end by their inability to finish the game off when they should have.
  2. Rougerie showed a certain poster on these forums that he truly is a sublime player as he made the two tries for ASM.
  3. Delon Armitage showed what an absolute **** he is with his laughing at the would be tackler in scoring the try…….how totally unprofessional and I am sure his Mother must be very proud of him!
  4. Alain Rolland was again poor…..for example - Toulon stood offside at many, many rucks, he allowed Toulon advantage for a knock on in the first half when they kicked the ball some 50 metres down field but did not give ASM the same privilege in the second half when, having not broken the gain line and playing advantage, Lobbe effected a brilliant turnover for the **** Armitage's try!
  5. Toulon deserved this victory for their team spirit, effort, defence and bloody mindedness….and cash expended.
  6. Laporte has done a blinding job with the disparate nationalities and talent at his disposal to create a "team"
  7. It will not be the same in the Top 14 Final as the mind game has been lost, plus Parra, Domingo and Rougerie seem to have injuries that may make next week difficult at the least.
 
Never said he was the cause of todays loss and he scored 5 points. And as you always say with ROG duck maybe he gets extra credit because of having an excellent pack but Brock James is not a top 10 that is needed for HEC success. Yes he gets by as he's with 1 of best squads in world club rugby but Clermont need a 10 in the world class category. The man who was best and in my opinion made James try was Rougerie. And well watching from behind the goals (not best view) I thought he was best back for Clermont considering very little rugby he's played lately.
And again I wouldn't hail Wilkinson for the conversion as it was on a good side for him (albeit a great kick) but Clermont didn't have the player at 10 (Skrela or James) to be smart and play it smart. There's a big difference from not playing poorly and playing superb team rugby. If roles were reversed Wilkinson in my opinion would've played a totally different game.
And while I don't rate James as highly as some I'd ask if he is the much better player then shouldn't Vern Cotter be asked some serious questions.


Difference between profiting from others work in gaining penalties. And actually creating for the players outside and scoring points yourself. That try that James scored was created by him and whilst Rougerie was to thank, you need to remember James' distributing and creativity and look at it. He is not just adequate and gets by as you make out he is a major force in the squad.


In my opinion, the focus should be on the breakdown and how Lobbe and Masoe got on top in that area. I don't think 10 was the issue for Clermont until Skrela came on. Not saying James is better player than Wilkinson, but he gained his side points on the day which was crucial considering Toulon didn't concede many penalties. I do rate Wilkinson as well.


Teams have won the Heineken Cup with worse fly halves than Brock James for sure. Skrela, King, ROG, Goode, Healey, Delaigue, Michalak how many of those are in the world class category? Northampton won with Alistair Hepher playing at 10, not even close to an international. Healey wasn't even a 10. Michalak is one of the most maligned fly halves in Europe. Skrela is most well known for a kick that went backwards. ROG had a day similar to James' in Leinster in the 2000 final (which got forgotten once he nailed a few match winners, unlike when James has). King, Goode and Delaigue were never established internationals. Hard to argue those are world class fly halves.


It's not that though as I said there a big difference between not being poor and being a class act. Your clips are not in knockout rugby so pressure isn't as intense but the point being made is Clermont need a worldclass 10 no an average one.
Brock James has been with an excellent Clermont team for 7 years now and in a pivotal position you will always be 1 of the people held responsible and (while not all James fault) 1 Amlin in 2007 and 1 Top 14 in 2010 is an embarrassing record considering their talent. As in they lost a few finals before they won and James is responsible in his part. As is Vern Cotter who I think is overhyped, when you consider his assistant left for a "lesser club" (not my words) on a lesser budget and won 2 HEC's and an Amlin and realistically could've been 3 HEC's if injury wasn't an issue

There was the winning home streak at stake there, which was pressure. If you want an example of a knockout game then I can go back further than this season and find the Top 14 semi final the year Clermont won the ***le. In extra time nailing a long drop goal. There have been more good times than that Leinster game.

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James is much better than average, if you watched Top 14 or previous H Cup games you would know that, and he has helped them top the Top 14 table and get them to this stage undefeated. It's Skrela who is the poor one. Clermont don't need to change, their squad is already achieving.

Also in those years Clermont. 1) Clermont didn't take H Cup seriously other than home games until 2009 and also sacrificed the 2011 away games. 2) They only topped the Top 14 table once, and simply weren't the better side in those years and normally came from the final from 3rd in the table. Toulouse who had a better squad for most of the time. It's not like they were losing to Castres in those years. I very much doubt you can find a final that was James' fault from those other than the quarter final.

Also as mentioned, some people have used far harsher words for Michalak and Goode than average. Clermont can certainly win the Heineken Cup with James, and should have this year. And may well still win the Top 14.

Clermont's record isn't embarrassing. One of the most consistent sides in Europe, Leinster have been just a class act. Certainly not a lesser club, they are strong from 1-15 as well and have a large amount of an international standard.
 
Duck.....I agree, James has won more games than he has lost for ASM and he did not let them down today.
 
James did a decent job - in fact I thought he was one of Clermont's better players today. He isn't a physical 10 like Wilkinson, but the role he plays is paramount to Clermont's attack - and has done for a while now.

That ability to throw 20-25 yard accurate passes of either hand is a trait that to many people seem to overlook when discussing James, but as a 10, you notice things like that. The likes of Rougerie, Sivivatu etc.. are only effective on the back of James, but the forwards need to build the foundations for him. Today that wasn't the case, but I thought he really stood up for them and put in a good performance.

As I said earlier, Clermont don't quite have the mentality needed to win those 'big games' on a regular basis, and that's undoubtedly the process that will be occurring. That mentality takes time; but defeats like today will improve them going forward. What I will say is that they need to win one soon. Starting next week.
 
Toulon didn't win it, Clermont lost it. Toulon are probably the least deserving team ever to win it.
No, that would be Munster in the 2008 when they cynically sealed the ball off for most of the second half preventing competition for the ball.
 
There was a great atmosphere at the match today, those Clermont fans are loud!

I thought Clermont had it won after James' try but they made a few mistakes that let Toulon back into the game. Trying to play rugby out of their own 22 ended up being a mistake, questions can be asked to why James didn't just kick the ball away but the problem was that they eventually got isolated because Lobbe was at almost every ruck today. I thought James actually had a very good game today, he really ran his backline well, bringing his wingers into play very effectively and his kicking was good. It was a game that could have gone either way and had Skrela not been used I think ASM would have won it. Congrats Toulon and Mourad who knew how much a Heineken cup cost!

Denis Hurley's one is my favorite!!!
http://balls.ie/rugby/four-professional-rugby-players-react-to-delon-armitages-wave-on-twitter/
 
No, that would be Munster in the 2008 when they cynically sealed the ball off for most of the second half preventing competition for the ball.

No that was the last 10 min. And Munster actually attacked the opposition and created chances that day.
 
I enjoyed the match.
Was a little dull for the first half but the second half was much better - especially the last few minutes.
Can't help but feel Toulon fluked it a little, as Clermont looked the better side for the vast majority, but that's knockout rugby for you!
 
Just as a side question to French supporters whatever about some of us saying James isn't top class and all that but do French fans worry that
1) There is really a serious shortage of 10s for national team
2) for all the big teams there is very little French players as main man
 
Just in. Awesome game. Was in the midst of a big bunch of Toulon supporters so I had an absolute gem of a time in the last 20 minutes or so. My Quebecois French was certainly tested, but I reckon shouting Allez is pretty universal. Went to against the grain after and had a few way too strong IPA's (we're talking 7% here lads) before heading out to a 21st. Some night.
 
Armitage has seen them, or at least Moore's.
I imagine his reply will disappear shortly, so I've screencapped it for good measure:
Weaokts.png
 
Just backing up what Moore said with that, such an absolute dick head got to be one of my least favorite players.
 

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