Greatest World XV Ever 'Past and Present'

[nickdnz]

The thing is there that the power of the attack may not be weak by todays standards, but the ability of the defenders is 10 fold better then anything we could have dreamt of 15 years ago. Back then, Tim Rodber was the only player who ever managed a dump tackle (solo) on big Jonah. Then about 8ish years ago, little George Greegan did the same thing to him. Now we see the likes of Paul Diggin bashing through Tuilagi, Ben Foden giving scottish 2nd rows a concussion by running at them and numerous 12s routinely demolishing number 8s - meanwhile fly-halves pick up and run with props while the props themselves sidestep and do 50m runs.

The great players of yesteryear maybe could be competitive in the modern game, but since professionalism the players are biggers, stronger, faster and over-all more skilful. They wouldn't have an advantage of just having the natural flair for the game any more because the modern player is taught how to think and is instinctively trained to know what to expect, (supposedly) particularly at test level.

In fairness though, as I've said, there is still no winger to my knowlege that is as big AND as fast. I mean, ignoring Mike Catt, Lomu did bump off players like Phil Vickery and Os du Randt while outpacing wingers like Joe Roff and Ben Cohen. I'll concede that there are many 100kg+ wingers, and the game and defence has changed to deal with that, but I still don't think Lomu wouldn't be considered the best winger around, when he was on full blast.

 

[ranger]

You missed the point completely. Back then there was no-one else like him, now a player of his size and agility is pretty un-remarkable.

I would be impressed if you can find one player from todays game who has his size and agility..

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I would be impressed if you can find one player from todays game who has his size and agility..

Full name Robert Fruean
Height 1.90 m (6 ft 3 in)
Weight 105 kg (16 st 7 lb)

Not a winger, but really reminded me of Lomu when I saw him in the ITM this season.
Lomu is/was a bit heavier, but is also a few inches taller

 

[Teh Mite]

There are plenty of wingers over 6'3 and around 17 stone out there these days.

 

[Dunnske]

Got this straight off the QLD Reds site, interesting to see how many greats you can pick just out of a club side.
This would be my team just because i grew up watching some of these boys.
Especially Ben Tune what a unit.. and Jason little.. legend.


In 1999 and after much discussion a Queensland Rugby "Team of the Century" was selected. That team was:

1 Dan Crowley
Dan was a highly mobile scrummager who played in three Rugby World Cups, winning two of them. Running out a total of 124 times for Queensland, Dan's decade-long career covered a golden era for the state.
2 Nev Cottrell
A skilful scrummager and determined tackler who went on to captain Australia, it was said Nev played like a runaway train and was one of the best hookers to represent his country.
3 Andy McIntyre
An internationally-respected prop who anchored the Queensland and Wallaby scrum in the 1980s and will always be remembered for that momentous pushover try against Wales in the 1984 Grand Slam tour. At the time of his retirement he was Australia’s most capped prop forward.
4 Graham Cooke
Graham was a big, powerful farmer’s son from the Darling Downs who played in the second row for Queensland and Australia and â€" as a result of a stint with Transvaal - almost qualified for selection for the Springboks.
One of the hardest and toughest men to play for Australia, he made his Queensland and Australian debut at the age of 20 and can lay claim to having the world’s longest international career, being recalled at the age of 35 after a break of 14 years.
5 John Eales
John’s contribution to rugby as a player and captain was outstanding. His athleticism in the lineout, general play, goal-kicking prowess and leadership qualities mark him out as one of the true champions of the modern game.
6 Tony Shaw
Another former Australian captain who played 112 matches for Queensland. A fierce competitor renowned for his uncompromising approach to the game, he was vigorous at the ruck and maul and a feared and respected opponent. A member of the so-called Queensland “holy trinity†in the 1970s.
7 David Wilson
Wherever the ball went David Wilson was never far behind. His high workrate, speed to the breakdown and fearless approach to the contest was responsible for countless turnovers and disruption of opposition ball.
8 Mark Loane
The famous Loane “Rhino charge†could bring a partisan Ballymore crowd to fever pitch, and leave would be defenders scattered in his wake. The second member of Queensland’s “holy trinity†during the golden years of the 1970’s
9 Des Connor (captain)
Des Connor is one of the finest scrum halves to ever play for Australia, possessing a fast, long pass and a great kicking game.
He won selection for Queensland in his first year out of school and played from 1954 to 1959 before accepting a teaching role in New Zealand, where he played for Auckland and then the All Blacks, becoming a dual international.
Des was also an innovative coach, and invented the short lineout to combat the All Blacks dominance in that area when he coached Australia in 1968.
10 Michael Lynagh
A backline general with pinpoint accuracy with the pass and kick in general play and a prolific points scorer with the boot, “Noddy†scored 1166 points for Queensland in 100 games and at one stage was the Australian record points scorer.
11 Brendan Moon
Possessing exceptional acceleration and evasive skills, he became one of the highest try scorers in test rugby for his time. An excellent finisher.
12 Tim Horan
A nuggety, powerful centre with radar defence and dramatic acceleration, Horan recovered from a crippling knee injury in 1994 through hard work and determination to become â€" if that were possible - an even better player than before.
13 Jason Little
The perfect foil to Horan’s power game, Little was a balanced, elusive runner whose combination with schoolmate Horan formed the perfect union. A punishing defender with excellent hands and an instinct for opportunity in attack.
14 Ben Tune
Another powerful and determined finisher with excellent evasive skills and rock solid defence. His try in the 1999 Rugby World Cup final will live forever in the memory of those who saw it.
15 Roger Gould
A big, powerful fullback with a punt kick described by colourful Rugby commentator Bill McLaren as “like the one o’clock gun at Edinburgh Castleâ€, Roger Gould had speed and acceleration to complement his huge frame, making him a menace to opposition backlines when he joined the line on attack.

 

[ranger]

Full name Robert Fruean
Height 1.90 m (6 ft 3 in)
Weight 105 kg (16 st 7 lb)

Not a winger, but really reminded me of Lomu when I saw him in the ITM this season.
Lomu is/was a bit heavier, but is also a few inches taller

Well there you almost have the size part of that statement, but Fruean is nowhere near as quick as Lomu. As Bullit said aswell there are plenty of wingers over 6'3 and 17 stone, just show me one who can run 100 in sub 11 seconds.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

((not a winger though - apparently a 10.7 sprint speed, and similar size/weight to Lomu))

 

[Teh Mite]

Well there you almost have the size part of that statement, but Fruean is nowhere near as quick as Lomu. As Bullit said aswell there are plenty of wingers over 6'3 and 17 stone, just show me one who can run 100 in sub 11 seconds.

Caucau. May be a short arse, but he's heavier and quicker.
Alex Tuilagi
Rocokoco
Cohen
Shane Horgan
Banahan (about 12 seconds).
Tim Visser

A player to make an impact of equivalent to Lomu in the modern game needs to be about 7 foot tall, 20+ stone and run the 100m in sub-9 seconds while posessing the sidestepping ability of Jason Robinson. Lomu was great, but he was the first of what has become somewhat common - Wingers the size of locks and the weight of props

 

[nickdnz]

Caucau. May be a short arse, but he's heavier and quicker. (6 inches smaller, 3kgs lighter (current weight), and has moved to centre because has lost speed)
Alex Tuilagi (4 inches shorter, 2kgs lighter, much slower)
Rocokoco (3 inches shorter, 16kgs lighter, roughly same speed)
Cohen (3 inches shorter, 17kgs lighter, a bit slower)
Shane Horgan (1 inch shorter, 16kgs lighter, a **** load slower)
Banahan (2 inches taller, 4kgs lighter and a fair bit slower)
Tim Visser (1 inch shorter, 11kgs lighter and a lot slower).

A player to make an impact of equivalent to Lomu in the modern game needs to be about 7 foot tall, 20+ stone and run the 100m in sub-9 seconds while posessing the sidestepping ability of Jason Robinson. Lomu was great, but he was the first of what has become somewhat common - Wingers the size of locks and the weight of props

As you can see, none of them come even close, short of Banahan, who is hardly as quick.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cohen slower than Lomu?
Not sure about that

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Well the ***le of this thread should be changed to the 'greatest' players of the professional era, if we are going to talk about the players being massive and not really talking about what they accomplished.

 

[Teh Mite]

Lomu was around 18 stone. They were all between 15.7 and 17 stone. When you're talking that much weight, the odd stone doesn't make any difference (Lomu on peak was around 17.8ish). Also Lomu was quick, but he was nowhere near that fast - Caucau & Joe would kill him him in a straight line. Cohen woud comfortably beat him. Visser and Tuilagi would just about gas him while HMS Banahan (so long as he had an extra 100m to get upto speed first!) wouldn't be far behind.

 

[nickdnz]

Lomu was around 18 stone. They were all between 15.7 and 17 stone. When you're talking that much weight, the odd stone doesn't make any difference (Lomu on peak was around 17.8ish). Also Lomu was quick, but he was nowhere near that fast - Caucau & Joe would kill him him in a straight line. Cohen woud comfortably beat him. Visser and Tuilagi would just about gas him while HMS Banahan (so long as he had an extra 100m to get upto speed first!) wouldn't be far behind.

Well, if you buy the 10.8 seconds 100m, then probably not. I disagree on all but perhaps Cohen, Caucaunibuca (when he was only 106kgs or less) and Rokocoko being as quick in their primes. Visser, Tuilagi and Banahan wouldn't get within a half second of Lomu. I've given the weights of the other players, and Lomu was 120kgs at his heaviest. Saying 16kgs doesn't matter, means I should be in the backline instead of prop.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Apparently Banahan (in 07 when playing England 7s) had a "sub 11 second" 100m time
Don't know how much I believe that, but it was a while back so who knows

 

[Teh Mite]

Well, if you buy the 10.8 seconds 100m, then probably not. I disagree on all but perhaps Cohen, Caucaunibuca (when he was only 106kgs or less) and Rokocoko being as quick in their primes. Visser, Tuilagi and Banahan wouldn't get within a half second of Lomu. I've given the weights of the other players, and Lomu was 120kgs at his heaviest. Saying 16kgs doesn't matter, means I should be in the backline instead of prop.

When your talking about players who weigh that much and are that fast at the same time, all you're talking about is a big bloke and a slightly bigger bloke both running at you at approximately 20mph. Semantics and minor details in the grand scheme.

 

[FlukeArtist]

@ Cymro

Tell me how would any current player, or past player know which era was the hardest to scrum in?
They have only been involved in one era.

And who are these players you speak of anyhow?

I have played front row, and dirty tactics (that you may well have gotten away with back in the "good old days") aside, how can you possibly say it would be easier to scrum against someone that is over 20kg heavier than what the players were previously?

You see what I mean about there being no definite way to compare the eras??

I accept all eras have their great players, but trying to compare from one era to another is all just conjecture.
Lets face facts here- some guys who were playing flanker (or wing forward back then) in the 50s would simply not make a side these days because they would be too small for the position.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

@ Cymro

Tell me how would any current player, or past player know which era was the hardest to scrum in?
They have only been involved in one era.

And who are these players you speak of anyhow?

I have played front row, and dirty tactics (that you may well have gotten away with back in the "good old days") aside, how can you possibly say it would be easier to scrum against someone that is over 20kg heavier than what the players were previously?

You see what I mean about there being no definite way to compare the eras??

I accept all eras have their great players, but trying to compare from one era to another is all just conjecture.
Lets face facts here- some guys who were playing flanker (or wing forward back then) in the 50s would simply not make a side these days because they would be too small for the position.

I don't have to name the players, because its not in my interest to do so. I can tell you for a fact that both were pretty decent scrummagers, and both played international rugby for Wales

Also if players can also be involved in one era, explain how someone can play in both the amateur era and professional era?

Good for you that you have played in the front row, nice touch. Heavier does not always mean better!

So if you cannot compare the era's then the ***le of this thread SHOULD change because people are disregarding players from by gone years and are only willing to pick modern day players.

 

[lucky number 7]

Nicky Poppelwell was an amateur in 1991 and weighed 110 kilos...fantastic player and would even now make it onto many sides from the recordings I have seen of him .

 

[GuyWynnDavies]

My Greatest Ever Rugby Team

1. Jason Leonard
2. Jon Smit
3. Carl Hayman
4. Martin Johnson
5. Victor Matfield
6. Jerry Collins
7. Richie McCaw
8. Dean Richards
9. Gareth Edwards
10. Diego Dominguez
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Jeremy Guscott
13. Brian O' Driscoll/ Will Carling (Couldn't split 'em)
14. David Campese
15. Serge Blanco

16. Graham Rowntree
17. Os Du Rant
18. Paul O' Connell
19. Sergio Parisse
20. Justin Marshall
21. Neil Jenkins
22. Jason Robinson

Tell me what you think of that

 

[Sam Owen]

Just back to the Lomu talk I feel that its unfair to say that Jonah was running around in the days when professional Rugby players couldnt tackle. Jonah bet some top of the line defenders, countries best, WORLDS best defenders.

I dont think Jonahs ability to run rampant was due to 'poor' defence, thats just taking the brilliance of the man away. Jonah sometimes bet 3, 4 or 5 defenders and here we are saying 'oh the defence wasnt good enough back then', should those teams have put 6 defenders on him?....once more Jonah did these runs against YOURS and MINES countries best players, its a bit harsh to turn around and say that your fellow countryman couldnt tackle (maybe 1 wasnt great but Jonah nearly always beat 1).



Robbie Fruean, Matt Banahan, Nicky Popplewell, Lesley Vainikolo are all big exciting runners to watch, here we are talking about Jonahs speed but the one thing that set Jonah apart from these guys and everyone else was his power, Im talking mini bus robustness. Jonah Lomu is without a doubt the most powerfullest winger Rugby has ever seen and that is why these big guys of today cant score or create the tries that Lomu could. Yes todays guys are big and fast which creates power but they DO NOT have the power that Lomu had.

Boxing had Ali, Basketball had Jordan, Rugbys was Jonah.