Expert report: De-power the scrum hit

[Teh Mite]

Bless.

Stay on topic or schtup.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Mite is right. The scrum exists for one reason; to tie the forwards in to leave room for back play. That seems to have forgotten over the years with the hit making getting true clean ball out to your out half more of a rarity. The vast majority of rugby fans are extremely unhappy at the way the scrum is being handled in the modern game. If the way to solve the problem is to remove the hit then so be it.

 

[Teh Mite]

Mite is right.

Freudian slip in the context of the thread!

 

[dullonien]

I've been going on about this for quite a while. I am not a prop, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that having the weight of 16 very big men crashing together onto the shoulders of just 6 of those is not a good thing. Think about it in terms of a punch to the face, you can do quite a lot of damage even from a short swing (even just a couple of inches), but there would be less damage it your fist has to be touching the persons face before making the movement.

I also maintain that binding issues would be solved by having the two packs coming together before any pushing occurs. Even with tight shirts, the props have a couple of seconds to find a proper bind instead of the split second they currently have. It would also allow a second or so for the ref and assistants to properly check the binding of all four props, instead of having to do so at the same time as the scrum half feeding the ball. Props binding incorrectly should then be more likely to be punished correctly.

Finally, because the ref has had this chance to check the binding before hand, he can keep a closer eye on the feed, and penalizing for incorrect feeds.

With no hit, emphasis is put back onto the better scrummagers. At the moment some weak props can survive by making sure they get a head start in the 'hit' process. They can also take the scrum down with improper binding etc. and because the ref has so much to look at at the same time, he sometimes get's away with it. Actual scrummaging technique, as well as raw power will be rewarded.

I don't understand why they needed three years of investigations to understand this, but I'm glad they did so because maybe now somethign will change.

 

[welshglory]

I see more where you're coming from now but Randt was also a fairly big guy as well as a great scrummager and I don't think anyone's ever considered Robinson a good prop.

I'm fairly small for a prop but I'm technically good often I can't be as effective if the heavier scrum comes so close the hit is essentially a fold in. I just fell the scrum should be a battle of skill as well not simply a pushing contest.

Actually around 2009/10 he was considered one of the best looseheads in the world, i think it was a flash in the pan though...

 

[smartcooky]

I've been going on about this for quite a while. I am not a prop, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that having the weight of 16 very big men crashing together onto the shoulders of just 6 of those is not a good thing. Think about it in terms of a punch to the face, you can do quite a lot of damage even from a short swing (even just a couple of inches), but there would be less damage it your fist has to be touching the persons face before making the movement.

I also maintain that binding issues would be solved by having the two packs coming together before any pushing occurs. Even with tight shirts, the props have a couple of seconds to find a proper bind instead of the split second they currently have. It would also allow a second or so for the ref and assistants to properly check the binding of all four props, instead of having to do so at the same time as the scrum half feeding the ball. Props binding incorrectly should then be more likely to be punished correctly.

Finally, because the ref has had this chance to check the binding before hand, he can keep a closer eye on the feed, and penalizing for incorrect feeds.

With no hit, emphasis is put back onto the better scrummagers. At the moment some weak props can survive by making sure they get a head start in the 'hit' process. They can also take the scrum down with improper binding etc. and because the ref has so much to look at at the same time, he sometimes get's away with it. Actual scrummaging technique, as well as raw power will be rewarded.

I don't understand why they needed three years of investigations to understand this, but I'm glad they did so because maybe now somethign will change.

Give that man a whistle!!!!!!

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Brian Moore is a man that the authorities need to listen to. Lot of stuff he writes is very correct. The hooker is now vulnerable When that scrum goes down ... the hookers neck is on the line because unlike the props who can stick a hand out to stop their neck taking the impact, the hooker has nothing to stop his head/neck hitting the ground but air.

My issue and the only issue going back to the old school style of scrummaging is there must have been a reason why they got rid of it in the first place? Someone I think earlier posted about less 'collapsing' back in the days. I don't think that is the case and haven spoken to quite a few 'oldies' they say there was quite a few collapses. However these collapses were more down to the skill of the prop rather than what we see now in terms of binding / prop just going down because he's lost the 'hit'.

Personally having done live scrummaging in the old school style I have to admit I did at first find it quite scary because you just fold in, and the tendency of the other props we were practising was just to go straight down :lol: . Once we got the hang of it, it was the battle of the skill rather than just sheer force.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

My issue and the only issue going back to the old school style of scrummaging is there must have been a reason why they got rid of it in the first place?

Others will be more qualified to speak on this than I but I believe that "the hit" was developed by the AIG All Blacks in the mid-90s. They did so to gain an advantage over the then more passive scrums of other teams. Other teams followed suit to combat their opponents willingness to gain an edge in this area and it escalated to the shambles we see today.

 

[Teh Mite]

Must be a TRF first, a thread where nearly everyone agrees!

 

[Feicarsinn]

The main problem with the scrum is Premier Rugby. If English clubs weren't so obsessed with money grabbing we wouldn't even ben having this debate.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If the Celtic nations didn't rest their props so much then we wouldn't have half as many collapses as they would be used to live scrummaging rather than just eating caked and farting around, like they do 99% of the season at the moment.

 

[austingtir]

I miss the push over scrum where try's are actually scored not penaltys due to one team either missing the hit and deciding we better drop this before something bad happens. I reckon it should be instant team yellow for any of that on your 5 metre line against an attacking scrum.

 

[Feicarsinn]

If the Celtic nations didn't rest their props so much then we wouldn't have half as many collapses as they would be used to live scrummaging rather than just eating caked and farting around, like they do 99% of the season at the moment.

Classic English imperialism. Guess what John Bull, you're not the centre of the world any more! It's that kind of backward attitude that has led to the mess we're seeing now at scrum time.

 

[Teh Mite]

:lol:

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I don't know how, but I'm sure it's the celtic nations' fault.

 

[nickdnz]

Others will be more qualified to speak on this than I but I believe that "the hit" was developed by the AIG All Blacks in the mid-90s. They did so to gain an advantage over the then more passive scrums of other teams. Other teams followed suit to combat their opponents willingness to gain an edge in this area and it escalated to the shambles we see today.

God damn it...

I think you'll find it's actually Australia's fault for the scrum collaps - dey took er players.

 

[LittleGuy]

We all know it's the Frenchies fault, the image rights they pay out have caused players to try and make that dramatic impact in the hit in order to get photos on scrum.com....planetrugby etc.

As well they refuse to release players from the Top 14 which causes many countries to be missing props who would hold their bind!!!!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The AIG All Blacks poaching all of the PI's talent is surely to blame.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The AIG All Blacks poaching all of the PI's talent is surely to blame.

Yes, because Woodcock, Crockett, Franks are very much PI's...

Prop is the one area where the PI seem to be struggling getting top class players, apart from Taumalolo there's not many well known PI props...

 

[psychic duck]

Yes, because Woodcock, Crockett, Franks are very much PI's...

Prop is the one area where the PI seem to be struggling getting top class players, apart from Taumalolo there's not many well known PI props...

Not true, the Tongans and Samoans have plenty of top class props.

Soane Tonga'uiha, Cencus Johnston, Logovi'i Mulipola are all props who are outstanding in Europe, plus Sona Taumalolo has done well for the Chiefs. Johnston in particular has been on great form this year.

Other props like James Johnston, Kisi Pulu and a few others also have had solid club careers in Europe too. Tonga have dozens of props. Only Fiji struggles to produce props.