Excuses wearing thin for Saint-Andre

[psychic duck]

http://www.espn.co.uk/france/rugby/story/212314.html

Martin Gillingham excellently exposes the Philippe Saint-Andre and constant use of the Top 14 as a scapegoat for France's poor form and to deflect the critics from him.

Read this:

It is simply untrue that the influx of foreign stars gets in the way of France's best teenagers. Three years ago at Worcester the following France U20 backline started against England: Yann Lesgourges, Jean-Marc Doussain, Jules Plisson, Jean-Pascal Barraque, Marvin O'Connor, Pierre Berard and Jean-Marcellin Buttin.Two have since been capped at senior level by France while a third (Plisson) is in the running to make his debut against England this weekend. All seven, though still just 22 or 23, are integral members of Top 14 squads and get more game time than their opposite numbers on that day do in the Aviva Premiership.

Just proves that if you're good enough and French you will get chances and plenty of game time - there's 14 teams of course. I disagree strongly at the entitlement attitude that places should be made for players by right. Being "blocked" from getting in your team and asking for restrictions to remove the competition is just another way of saying "not good enough" in my opinion. I would suggest that those players who can't crack their Top 14 teams, probably aren't good enough for international rugby anyway.

Tired of hearing PSA blame the Top 14, on paper he's got a good squad with solid depth. If France, with still a very talented team, play like clowns again this 6 Nations there's only themselves to blame.

 

[Maverick1987]

A Frenchman called Marvin O'Conner ?

You pulling my leg ? Haha

 

[Peat]

A Frenchman called Marvin O'Conner ?

You pulling my leg ? Haha

Dad was an Aussie who played pro rugby in France and settled there, Marvin came through the ranks at... I want to say Grenoble?

Also, as a way of disproving the complaints about Too many NFQs and not enough FQs goes, that's bobbins. Seriously, seriously bobbins. Wow, seven guys from an U20 team came through, all is alright! What about the year before? The year after? The forwards? The guys who missed out on that year but who had notable talent?

Does the comparison stand up if we use the strongest England line-up available that year which includes Dan Robson, Owen Farrell, Christian Wade and Marland Yarde? Oh, and Manu Tuilagi. Tuilagi and Farrell both skipped a lot/all of the U20 6N to play senior rugby, think Wade missed quite a bit of it too. At what age did these guys break into Top 14 squads? Tuilagi and Farrell had both broken through by then, Daly didn't take long to follow, think Wade was there or there abouts at the time, Yarde broke through next year I think (think he was a year young) etc.etc.

It simply isn't enough evidence. It's one possible piece of evidence with quite a few holes in it.

I mean, it's an unfair comparison in some ways, but if we're measuring success in bringing through players by where the 2011 age grade team is, then are France doing well when England have 4 Lions, 3 senior caps, 2 A caps who will be on the bench next Saturday, 3 A caps, 1 guy who will collect his first A cap next week, a Barbarian and a partridge in a pear tree? Make that partridge a guy who'd have picked up his first A cap but for injury. Sorry. 4 senior caps. Forgot Jonathan Joseph. How many caps have the French brought through from their 2011 JWC team? Should it be less than our 8 going on 10 when they have more clubs than us?

 

[gaston le gaff]

Grenoble is correct has been at Bayone for 2 seasons his dad played league not union. the number of youngsters coming through into top 14 sides are quite numerous, just at Montpellier we have, Berard, Selponi, Perraux, Artru Galletier, Escande, De Marco all are under 19,and 20 Internationals,in the last couple of years and all have played for Montellier this season and broke into the 1st team squad around 20/21, but non have made full International just yet

 

[Big Ewis]

one hell of a winger.........I remember watching a match not too long ago where the pundits (English, mind you) were saying how outside of New Zealand, France atm was the team with the greatest depth at that position. Couldn't agree more. Marvin O'connor is constantly amongst the mainly debated french prospects in that category..

 

[psychic duck]

Dad was an Aussie who played pro rugby in France and settled there, Marvin came through the ranks at... I want to say Grenoble?

Also, as a way of disproving the complaints about Too many NFQs and not enough FQs goes, that's bobbins. Seriously, seriously bobbins. Wow, seven guys from an U20 team came through, all is alright! What about the year before? The year after? The forwards? The guys who missed out on that year but who had notable talent?

Does the comparison stand up if we use the strongest England line-up available that year which includes Dan Robson, Owen Farrell, Christian Wade and Marland Yarde? Oh, and Manu Tuilagi. Tuilagi and Farrell both skipped a lot/all of the U20 6N to play senior rugby, think Wade missed quite a bit of it too. At what age did these guys break into Top 14 squads? Tuilagi and Farrell had both broken through by then, Daly didn't take long to follow, think Wade was there or there abouts at the time, Yarde broke through next year I think (think he was a year young) etc.etc.

It simply isn't enough evidence. It's one possible piece of evidence with quite a few holes in it.

I mean, it's an unfair comparison in some ways, but if we're measuring success in bringing through players by where the 2011 age grade team is, then are France doing well when England have 4 Lions, 3 senior caps, 2 A caps who will be on the bench next Saturday, 3 A caps, 1 guy who will collect his first A cap next week, a Barbarian and a partridge in a pear tree? Make that partridge a guy who'd have picked up his first A cap but for injury. Sorry. 4 senior caps. Forgot Jonathan Joseph. How many caps have the French brought through from their 2011 JWC team? Should it be less than our 8 going on 10 when they have more clubs than us?

Teams will differ year to year in success of their youth squads, some will have a dozen internationals and others few. However the point being made is that talent provided it's good enough will get chances in the Top 14. It's talking about chances being given, not which between England and France were stronger that year. There may well have been 0 from a France U20 team get regular game time one year, but it would more likely mean they weren't good enough than the Top 14's fault as it's proven that those who are like Parra, Bastareaud, Dulin, Fickou, Palis and Doussain can get chances.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

Whenever Saint-Andre moans about the money and foreigners of the Top 14 ruining the French side, it's worth reminding ourselves how he got himself the job: He was coach of Toulon.

Consider my case rested.

 

[Peat]

Teams will differ year to year in success of their youth squads, some will have a dozen internationals and others few. However the point being made is that talent provided it's good enough will get chances in the Top 14. It's talking about chances being given, not which between England and France were stronger that year. There may well have been 0 from a France U20 team get regular game time one year, but it would more likely mean they weren't good enough than the Top 14's fault as it's proven that those who are like Parra, Bastareaud, Dulin, Fickou, Palis and Doussain can get chances.

It is true that you will get differences between age groups.

But is the rapid advancement of the English youth an example of superior talent or of greater opportunity? Sure your Tuilagis and your Doussains will get their chances, but what of the French equivalents of Charlie Matthews and Will Collier? How far along the curve are they? Is their development suffering for want of high quality game time? Look at the 2010 squad, Forsyth and Clegg both dropped out of big clubs to look for more gametime and found it elsewhere in the Premiership, improving their chance of making it down the road. What about their French equivalents? Were there T14 clubs waiting to hoover them up?

What about the slow burners? Guys who don't get as close to their peak until their mid to late 20s? Geoff Parling was a very important cog of the England team for a brief period and will probably be in the World Cup squad. He was an England age grade international but he didn't move to a top club until he was 26, didn't pick up a senior cap until 29. Would the French system have brought him through? Toulon wouldn't have signed him. Would have Toulouse or Clermont? I don't follow them, I don't know, it's a genuine question, but how often do they pick up guys in their mid 20s to develop them? Luther Burrell is another guy in the same model. Pretty much every English club will give it a punt. Partly that's the salary cap, you have to keep on developing talent. Partly its the RFU bungs to make them have a good proportion of English players. Whatever the weather, virtually every club in England offers that opportunity. And these guys are important for the international team. Its not all about your marked from youth superstars, as you run out of numbers pretty soon.

And so on. There's plenty more questions I could ask. Plenty and plenty. I don't know enough about the situation but the reality is, if you want to convince someone about something you shouldn't use so little data. The example illustrates nothing without access to the wider numbers and as such, fills me with suspicion.

Dunc - What case? That PSA is a mild hypocrite? What's that got to do with him being right or wrong on this issue?

 

[gaston le gaff]

Whenever Saint-Andre moans about the money and foreigners of the Top 14 ruining the French side, it's worth reminding ourselves how he got himself the job: He was coach of Toulon.

Consider my case rested.

Before you rest your case you might consider that others were offered the job before PSA but refused as it can be a kind of poisoned gift, you succeed you are hailed as great you fail the country wants your head. Please dont ask which others as i would not be able to answer that: confidentality...

 

[FrenchFan]

http://www.espn.co.uk/france/rugby/story/212314.html

Martin Gillingham excellently exposes the Philippe Saint-Andre and constant use of the Top 14 as a scapegoat for France's poor form and to deflect the critics from him.

Read this:


Just proves that if you're good enough and French you will get chances and plenty of game time - there's 14 teams of course. I disagree strongly at the entitlement attitude that places should be made for players by right. Being "blocked" from getting in your team and asking for restrictions to remove the competition is just another way of saying "not good enough" in my opinion. I would suggest that those players who can't crack their Top 14 teams, probably aren't good enough for international rugby anyway.

Tired of hearing PSA blame the Top 14, on paper he's got a good squad with solid depth. If France, with still a very talented team, play like clowns again this 6 Nations there's only themselves to blame.[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

absolutely true. The presence of so many foreigners is also raising the standard of the league and pushing young french players UP. I'd love to be in Plisson's boot and train with Morne Steyn every weeek. What an education. French players who make the national squad have to fight their way thru increased competition in their club so if they get picked in club like Plisson at SF then they must be good. And they are good enough to play Intl rugby. Bonneval is another very exciting back playing at Stade Francais with Plisson.
The whole issue about foreigners in the game is just the tree that hides the forest. PSA's other problem last season was his inability to motivate his troops and find LEADERS. Nobody stepped up when things went wrong. The players body language said it almost all... With Dusautoir out he doesn't have that many senior plyayers around who can lead. This is a problem only the national coach can address directly, not the clubs. His problems are not over....

 

[Big Ewis]

The "international players are raising the bar for local French players and Top 14 competition in general" argument is the one I've held for some time now, the only positive one concerning those DAMN HIGH PAID IMMIGRANTS !!! I mean internationals in our country...
of course there are many, ehmm, 'inconveniences' that arise from that situation too - but that would be the one positive I'd take out of it.

And yes PSA has flaws as a selector/coach, but Papé seems like a fine figure. They say he's a good leader, and though he 'looks' soft, he's actually much harder than he seems.

 

[FrenchFan]

The "international players are raising the bar for local French players and Top 14 competition in general" argument is the one I've held for some time now, the only positive one concerning those DAMN HIGH PAID IMMIGRANTS !!! I mean internationals in our country...
of course there are many, ehmm, 'inconveniences' that arise from that situation too - but that would be the one positive I'd take out of it.

And yes PSA has flaws as a selector/coach, but Papé seems like a fine figure. They say he's a good leader, and though he 'looks' soft, he's actually much harder than he seems.

I like Papé. We need 5 like him. Not just a captain. Leaders like Nallet, Servat & Bonnaire haven't been replaced since the last WC. One per line. Thast what we need. Not just one captain. When Lievremont lost the team these guys put their hands up. I dont see anyone around. Will take time but this team will misfire again until the true couillus (men with balls) emerge...

 

[Big Ewis]

that's right, we're still a bit young...Maestri isn't a couillu, he's a gentle giant. Vahaamahina is ultra shy as he's said in an interview...so there's just Papé for the second row. Now up front Slimani is one loud mouth, and I'm loving this guy. And he's still very young. Just wait til he puts on a couple extra kilos, gains some experience. Then he's going to bark at everybody that's got a problem with him. And he's already wrecking some front rows. Super happy to have em, and on a side note if all guys originally from Algeria were like him, I'd be one happy s.o.b.

Mas and Domingo are destructive scrummagers, but they ain't big mouths. Kayser is pretty charismatic, he's not afraid of the camera or to say things as they are. I don't rate Szar here...

3rd row, besides Dusautoir....mmm...nobody I think.