European Team Of The Tournament

[Leonormous Boozer]

Disagree completely. The level of the elite teams has undoubtedly risen even relative to say 5-6 years ago. Munster won ***les with mediocre props and a backline full of average players like Ian Dowling, Anthony Horgan and Denis Hurley, Wasps won with the likes of Tom French, Richard Birkett, Tom Voyce, Mark van Gisbergen. There was a clear marked difference between the quality of the squads back then compared to international teams. More recently the likes of Joe Schmidt's Leinster, Toulon or Clermont have had squads complete from 1-15 and with quality superior to many international sides (Schmidt's Leinster would have beaten Ireland, Toulon or Clermont would easily beat France). European domestic rugby has far more quality players from across the globe than it did even 4-5 years ago.

Ok, I haven't explained myself well. I think 2005 is a good year to start with due to it being a time when rugby began to change into the sport we have today. Relative to all the other teams at the time, the competitiveness if the competition and due to club sides not having anywhere near the resources they have today Ibthink a team like '06 Munster is better than Toulon. It's a bit of an impossible exercise but if you don't have factors like it it becomes impossible to compare sides from different years.

If you forget that they have done three in a row, again a stupid exercise due to the magnitude of the achievement, there individual cup wins were somewhat unremarkable considering in all their semi finals and finals they played a total of four teams. Of these four teams one was a defending domestic champion, Leinster who were 5th in the pro12 when they met and they needed a gift to win the match, one was a rather shambolic Munster side, they played Saracens twice and twice Saracens proved they are nothing without a dominant pack and Clermont twice, yesterday when again they were gifted a win and 2013 when it was generally agreed that they were outplayed over 80mims and nicked it after Clermont bottled yet again. They had an easy route and although they did have to be good enough to take advantage of this I think the fact that they never really faced monumental challenges like beating bloodgate, the Saints to the second half in '11, Clermont in Bordeaux (spot the Leinster fan!), Biarittz' early onslaught in '06, Munster in Lansedowne in '05 or those Toulouse sides in '07 and '08 they will alwaysbe remembered for the threepeat, to use an awful Americanism, rather than any specific defining moment which sports fans really love.

They're like Nick Faldo compared to Seve Ballesteros in terms of majors and competition wins Faldo has won more but the manner of his victories and the way he achieved them mean that Seve will always be remembered as the better of the two. Of course this is all romantic bull**** but unless Toulon go four in a row, which won't happen they're undergoing too much change next year, they're still in the same legue as Leinster and Toulouse in terms of GOAT in my opinion, whereas had they won from '11-13 for example they'd be light years ahead.

TL;DR Factors have to be taken into account when comparing sides 5+ years apart and Toulon were in the right place at the right time, facing little adversary on their way to three in a row.

 

[psychic duck]

Ok, I haven't explained myself well. I think 2005 is a good year to start with due to it being a time when rugby began to change into the sport we have today. Relative to all the other teams at the time, the competitiveness if the competition and due to club sides not having anywhere near the resources they have today Ibthink a team like '06 Munster is better than Toulon. It's a bit of an impossible exercise but if you don't have factors like it it becomes impossible to compare sides from different years.

If you forget that they have done three in a row, again a stupid exercise due to the magnitude of the achievement, there individual cup wins were somewhat unremarkable considering in all their semi finals and finals they played a total of four teams. Of these four teams one was a defending domestic champion, Leinster who were 5th in the pro12 when they met and they needed a gift to win the match, one was a rather shambolic Munster side, they played Saracens twice and twice Saracens proved they are nothing without a dominant pack and Clermont twice, yesterday when again they were gifted a win and 2013 when it was generally agreed that they were outplayed over 80mims and nicked it after Clermont bottled yet again. They had an easy route and although they did have to be good enough to take advantage of this I think the fact that they never really faced monumental challenges like beating bloodgate, the Saints to the second half in '11, Clermont in Bordeaux (spot the Leinster fan!), Biarittz' early onslaught in '06, Munster in Lansedowne in '05 or those Toulouse sides in '07 and '08 they will alwaysbe remembered for the threepeat, to use an awful Americanism, rather than any specific defining moment which sports fans really love.

They're like Nick Faldo compared to Seve Ballesteros in terms of majors and competition wins Faldo has won more but the manner of his victories and the way he achieved them mean that Seve will always be remembered as the better of the two. Of course this is all romantic bull**** but unless Toulon go four in a row, which won't happen they're undergoing too much change next year, they're still in the same legue as Leinster and Toulouse in terms of GOAT in my opinion, whereas had they won from '11-13 for example they'd be light years ahead.

TL;DR Factors have to be taken into account when comparing sides 5+ years apart and Toulon were in the right place at the right time, facing little adversary on their way to three in a row.

I was talking about the general standard of European rugby, which is clearly much higher than it was 10 years ago. That Munster side of 06 would not be good enough to challenge for European cups any more. I don't see why any of those games you reference that makes them superior to Toulon by the way.

Schmidt's Leinster side is the only side I would back to potentially challenge Toulon as the best side in European history, I would argue Clermont have played some pretty awesome rugby as well despite the lack of a trophy. If anybody wants to win the tournament they will have to recruit big now from 1-15, you can't win with a load of mediocrities in the backline a la Munster 2006 any more.

 

[munstermuffin]

I was talking about the general standard of European rugby, which is clearly much higher than it was 10 years ago. That Munster side of 06 would not be good enough to challenge for European cups any more. I don't see why any of those games you reference that makes them superior to Toulon by the way.

Schmidt's Leinster side is the only side I would back to potentially challenge Toulon as the best side in European history, I would argue Clermont have played some pretty awesome rugby as well despite the lack of a trophy. If anybody wants to win the tournament they will have to recruit big now from 1-15, you can't win with a load of mediocrities in the backline a la Munster 2006 any more.

Just on that you may be right but the Munster pack of 06 could seriously challenge the Toulon pack of today I think. Wallace at his peak would better Armitage. Foley at that stage was as shrewd as they came at 8. The 6 battle is tight. Leamy was no slouch and Quinny was well able. I think we'd better them in2nd row and at hooker. Yes they'd have better props.
Certainly wouldn't say they'd struggle to compete.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I was talking about the general standard of European rugby, which is clearly much higher than it was 10 years ago. That Munster side of 06 would not be good enough to challenge for European cups any more. I don't see why any of those games you reference that makes them superior to Toulon by the way.

Schmidt's Leinster side is the only side I would back to potentially challenge Toulon as the best side in European history, I would argue Clermont have played some pretty awesome rugby as well despite the lack of a trophy. If anybody wants to win the tournament they will have to recruit big now from 1-15, you can't win with a load of mediocrities in the backline a la Munster 2006 any more.

We're approaching this differently! The Romantic vs The Mechanic kind of!

 

[Tony Manx]

One French websites XV:

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/rugby...xv-de-la-champions-cup_sto4704016/story.shtml

 

[TheSaffycen]

Abendanon has won the European Player of the year.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Abendanon has won the European Player of the year.

The ENGLISH domination of this award continues!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chippieolamus]

The ENGLISH domination of this award continues!!!!!!!!!!!

Buuuut none of them can play for England.

 

[Tony Manx]

Abendanon has won the European Player of the year.

Elected by....."The award was allocated by an expert panel of journalists and former players"....who are not named and when has a journalist ever earned the tag of expert or a former player been unbiased!!!!

He is good but not as good as a Carling...............

 

[munstermuffin]

Abendanon has won the European Player of the year.

Fully deserved

 

[TheSaffycen]

Personally I don't think it was. He was brilliant against Northampton, but then that's not hard against a team that completely capitulated. He was outplayed in both the semi and finally by his opposite number, in the group he was good against us but in the knock out he made a grand 32 meters against us. Personally Billy should've won it but then maybe I'm biased.

 

[munstermuffin]

As a Munster man I think he deserved it. He produced some magical moments along with consistent high performances.

 

[FrenchFan]

Right here I thought we could put forward our XVs

1.Vunipola
2.Guirado
3.Ross
4.Vahaamahina
5.Williams
6.Lee
7.Armitage
8.Vunipola
9.Tillous-Borde
10.Ford
11.North
12.Fofana
13.Joseph
14.Mitchell
15.Halfpenny

 

[gaston le gaff]

View attachment 3765

you could be alighting more fires with that one, good choice with Abendanon, as said previously a player from the final deserevs it, more than others especially as he has been good throughout, obviously the experts, are experts and journos good journos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice to see i was once again right even though i was showered with abuse, sticks and stones, but i have broad shoulders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chippieolamus]

you could be alighting more fires with that one, good choice with Abendanon, as said previously a player from the final deserevs it, more than others especially as he has been good throughout, obviously the experts, are experts and journos good journos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice to see i was once again right even though i was showered with abuse, sticks and stones, but i have broad shoulders !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

... Are you a troll? No one abused you, it was just a debate...

 

[gaston le gaff]

you certainlmy do not know what abuse is then? against my self and the French in GENERAL IT IS NOT NECESSARY

As a senior membner with over 2,000 you accuse now of trolling what next, the constant abuse against the French or Francophiles is just endless and totally unnecessary, constructive critism is accepable, but the calling of names and such like childish and completely uncalled for, eg (frogs are reptiles) plus many others, etc etc there are few posters from France whether they are french or not does not matter they have chosen this as their country, myself all my family are French so this to me is a slur on them as wellas myself it needs to stop now.

 

[TheSaffycen]

One person came out with a derogatory comment and then had 3/4 people say that it was out of order. Apart from that most people have disagreed with your point on the player coming from a team in the final, that is not abuse.

 

[Groundhog]

I believe this is what we call a martyr complex. I don't think anyone anywhere was vehemently against Abendanon, just in disagreement.

 

[gaston le gaff]

One person came out with a derogatory comment and then had 3/4 people say that it was out of order. Apart from that most people have disagreed with your point on the player coming from a team in the final, that is not abuse.

firstly we are not talking about this thread we are talking in general, most people disagreed with me, i have no problem with that as in the end i had reason as the experts chose someone from the final, go to the asm toulon thread more abuse pointed against the French it is all over the forum, do we digress into name calling and childish abuse NO, anyone can have a point of view without abuse, so why do we have to carry on with this childish banter and bahaviour i thought we were all adults but sometimes i have my doubts!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I believe this is what we call a martyr complex. I don't think anyone anywhere was vehemently against Abendanon, just in disagreement.

no one not even myself was against Abendnon i agree with the choice this is nothing to do with Matyr complex!!! its just childish and silly to keep abusing anyone in France who is either French or not, do we throw abuse at the Irish definetly not, or any other Nation i love the place, and i have respect for all even if i disagree with their points of view i always show respêct and only after abuse is thrown do i retaliate, this is all so not necessary if every one could do the same it would one greater world to live in. We are here to talk about rugby and of story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Leonormous Boozer]

Perhaps European player of the year should come from TOULON!!!!!!!! OR DID YOU NOT KNOW THATS THE 3RD TIME RUNNING THEY HAVE WON THE TOURNAMENT

They have played more games, won more games and beaten everybody for the last 3 years OK so take your pick!!!!! you have a reasonable choice below sorry Billy did not get a game yesterday...........

e XV de départ: Halfpenny ; Mitchell, Bastareaud, Hernandez, Habana ; (o) Giteau, (m) Tillous-Borde ; S. Armitage, Masoe, J. Smith ; Williams, Botha ; Hayman, Guirado, Chiocci. Remplaçants: Orioli, Menini, Chilachava, Fernandez Lobbe, Bruni, Wulf, Michalak, Taofifenua.

nobody deserves anything you have to earn it and i personnally think that someone like Giteau or others from Toulon do deserve it not a player who's team did not even get to the final. and as you say if they have not been better, how come they are virtually unbeaten over 3 years in Europe bar a couple of pool game loses, and if you don't want him to come from the wining team there is always Bonnaire but once again he's FRENCH ooooppppssss................

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The thing about a great team is that they can afford to lose a couple of games and still win the finals 3 years on the trot.......n'est pas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you certainlmy do not know what abuse is then? against my self and the French in GENERAL IT IS NOT NECESSARY

As a senior membner with over 2,000 you accuse now of trolling what next, the constant abuse against the French or Francophiles is just endless and totally unnecessary, constructive critism is accepable, but the calling of names and such like childish and completely uncalled for, eg (frogs are reptiles) plus many others, etc etc there are few posters from France whether they are french or not does not matter they have chosen this as their country, myself all my family are French so this to me is a slur on them as wellas myself it needs to stop now.

Aye it was the anti-French alliance that were aggressors on this thread...