Eurocup poll

[lynam1104]

I understand the issues with qualification, structure ect but I cannot support a movement which seeks to destroy international rugby and turn our sport into who has the biggest pay checks.

 

[profitius]

I do wonder about this attitude though. I mean, aside from PRL telling us that the ERC can't run a competition, what evidence is there? The Heineken Cup is arguably (I'd say definitely) the most successful club competition in the world. It appears to be growing in popularity year on year. Their chief argument against the ERC in this regard seems to be the inability to maximize profit potential, yet it's telling that the earnings of the Top 14 have far outstripped the PRL run premiership in the last 5 years.

Ironic isn't it. The ERC run HEC has grown year on year and if anything they're now victims of their own success because TV companies are fighting over who gets to show it and the PRL/millionaires now see it as a big money making opportunity.

Meanwhile the PRL run premiership is being run into the ground. Not so long ago they were attracting the cream of the French talent now its the complete opposite and the gap is widening. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

a) Meanwhile the PRL run premiership is being run into the ground.
b) the gap is widening. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

a) What?
b) What? Last round's ERC had 4 English wins vs 3 French wins. Wouldn't suggest a massive gap, really - especially when you look at some of the losses e.g. Exeter pushing the galacticos of Toulon very very close.

 

[Peat]

Nigel Wray is Saracens Chairman, and they play at Allianz Park, and he speaks in favour of what PRL have done.

Can you think of a better example?

Sarries have been through notoriously small crowds for years without it seeming to bother Wray too much.

Olyy - don't think profitius was talking about the on the pitch, I think he was talking about comparative revenue streams. Which may or may not be true. I don't know how well they compare, there's no doubt clubs like Leicester could spend a lot more without our relatively low cap, and that Craig could turn Bath into a Toulon if our rules permitted. Their TV deals defecate all over ours though, which may be superior French commercial acumen, or it may just be a reflection of the fact that France is a bigger country than England.

Plus, if I am right, the BT deal + the marquee player allowance + the recent cap raises have allowed us to narrow it a little.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I saw a list that compared the Premiership and top14 budgets and the top 5-6 English clubs have more or less the same operating budget as their French equivalents, so I don't doubt they could all afford to spend up to the French cap.
But below that the budgets start to seperate out a little, but the difference isn't that much.

 

[Rich Taff]

I selfishly voted to go along with the Regions, apologies to the others, but for once, I'm going with what I feel is best for my lot.

 

[Amiga500]

Nigel Wray is Saracens Chairman, and they play at Allianz Park, and he speaks in favour of what PRL have done.

Can you think of a better example?

The Sorries routinely have about 10 people turn up to watch them...

Doesn't seem to bother Nigel "its what the fans want" Wray too much!



[OK, 10 might be a bit of an exaggeration... 15 :lol:]

 

[St George]

IMO the choices on offer are too narrow and represent the OP's personal take on things and who he supports.

I for one cannot support the ERC side as i believe it is their intransigence over the last few years that has brought Euro Rugby Union to the brink of the worst crises it has faced since the break with League.

So therefore i must be supporting the PRL/RRW/LNR.... sorry but as it has been put on this thread, then no i cannot support a system run by those bodies alone.

But i would like to question the premise that its the PRL who have instigated everything and it will be their show with others being bit players. If someone can show me where it says that the PRL intend to be President, Chairman, CEO & 51% shareholder in any RCC competition, then please do so.

And if anyone can also point me in the right direction to where it says that the PRL intend to see the demise of International Rugby, then please do so.

If people have clear evidence of both these points, then either put up or shut up. And if its the latter, then stop scaremongering via speculation and self serving opinion, as it does neither sides in this debacle any good. I for one am sick to death of reading doom & gloom based on guesswork and personal desire to see failure from one side.

For me, the only ones to have come out of all this with any credit is the RFU who have been the 3-legged man with one foot in it's Union responsibilties for Rugby, one foot in it's Domestic Club camp & one foot in the future of Euro Rugby with all participants onboard. And even though CEO Ritchie was very disappointed with the snub by the other Unions, he and the RFU are still trying to resolve the issues.

I cannot say much about the Irish, Scottish & Italian standpoint, but i think the WRU & FFR have acted despicably and have shown total disregard for the views of its own domestic setups. If anybody actually thinks the French have resolved all their problems and will be good HC boys from now on, then i'm afraid that they may be jumping the gun abit as i can see the status quo being temporary until such time as the LNR are in a position to change their lot. Time will tell.

And i am feeling utter despair at how the Welsh Regions are going and Rugby in Wales as a whole. The 57 Old Farts have moved house and setup in the WRU the way Rugby in Wales has been handled since Professionalism. The farce that is creating a civil war in Welsh Rugby is just a continous failure of the WRU to get to grips with what the fans, players and coaches of Wales want to see for their domestic rugby. Great National team....but a shambles below that, with no coherent unity from the fanbases upwards. Tragic for such a great Rugby nation.

My vote therefore goes to a 3rd choice which is not on this Poll. That is the setting up of a new body to run Euro Rugby, administered by all the participants. Clubs, Regions, Franchises & Unions.

But that will not happen whilst Big Brother bullying takes place from certain Unions.

 

[ratsapprentice]

And if anyone can also point me in the right direction to where it says that the PRL intend to see the demise of International Rugby, then please do so.

If people have clear evidence of both these points, then either put up or shut up. And if its the latter, then stop scaremongering via speculation and self serving opinion, as it does neither sides in this debacle any good. I for one am sick to death of reading doom & gloom based on guesswork and personal desire to see failure from one side.

How can you not see the clear dissonance in the interests of clubs run as capitalist ventures and international rugby (Unions)?

International rugby is clearly a competitor to their business.

Tell me honestly how you do not understand that.

 

[St George]

Because i am also a football fan, and i have yet to see the demise of International Football with the massive influx of Owner based Clubs around Europe. The Club Owners are businessmen and have their businesses at heart as you say, but they are not brain-dead blinkered morons as many wish to make out, and know that the massive draw of International Rugby is also going to make them money, to say otherwise is absurd.

And as i say....show me the evidence.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The owners aren't out to get the international game, but they will not allow their own team to be weakened.
If they really had the interests of the Engish game at heart then the RFU would not have to introduce things like the EPS and EQP systems - systems that clearly limit the international side.

And as i say....show me the evidence.

Fiji's 10th anniversary game - most of their 1st choice players were not released by their clubs, because the clubs are bigger than the Fiji union so they simply don't give a ****.

The general relative strength of international sides with top-down, pyramidal Union control.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Football has a bunch of different ownership models. In Germany, it's mandatory that fans own 51% of their club. In Spain both Barcelona and Read Madrid are supporter owned. In Brazil, Argentina, Turkey and Sweden, teams don't have private owners. I don't know if it's still the case but in France it was once mandatory for clubs to pump all profits back in to the team. England is a basket case and the most open, profit driven football market. That's why there's so much interest from foreign investors in the at league. It's hard to argue that England's footballing fortunes haven't been great recently whereas the German, Spanish, Brazilian and to a lesser extent French and Argentinian models are working.

On, "the massive draw of International Rugby is also going to make them money", here's a quote from Mourad Boudjellal who owns Toulon:
"We need a [number] 10 who's not in his national team, and we're also looking for a 90% [success rate] kicker," he said.

Surely if he thinks international competition is good for his team he'd want an international kicker.

I agree with your assertion that a new body should take control of European Rugby by the way.

 

[St George]

The owners aren't out to get the international game, but they will not allow their own team to be weakened.
If they really had the interests of the Engish game at heart then the RFU would not have to introduce things like the EPS and EQP systems - systems that clearly limit the international side.

Fiji's 10th anniversary game - most of their 1st choice players were not released by their clubs, because the clubs are bigger than the Fiji union so they simply don't give a ****.

The general relative strength of international sides with top-down, pyramidal Union control.

Jeez....is that it? Show me a professional sport where owners or interested parties allow their teams to be "weakened" just for the international game. Most other sports run alongside their international games or have designated windows like football. Rugby administration is still amateur in its approach to both formats.

And the case of Fiji is hardly the problem of the owners. The IRB have laws in place which should prohibit any abuse of player release. If they dont enforce them then thats for the IRB and Fiji. And if players sign contracts which allow for prohibitive release for their national side, then that is down to those players and their Unions. It is absurd to blame businessmen for the economical draw that Europe holds around the World. This is seen in all walks of life with the subject of economical migration very much at the forefront of Euro politic at the moment. But hey....you carry on blaming the PRL owners.

 

[St George]

It's hard to argue that England's footballing fortunes haven't been great recently whereas the German, Spanish, Brazilian and to a lesser extent French and Argentinian models are working.

On, "the massive draw of International Rugby is also going to make them money", here's a quote from Mourad Boudjellal who owns Toulon:
"We need a [number] 10 who's not in his national team, and we're also looking for a 90% [success rate] kicker," he said.

Surely if he thinks international competition is good for his team he'd want an international kicker.

I agree with your assertion that a new body should take control of European Rugby by the way.

Seeing as England have won and drawn the recent games with Brazil.....

But yes England are not a great team....and havent been since 66-70s. To blame that on the current Premiership money orientated setup with rich owners....Jeez some are really clutching at straws here.

And the Toulon owner is a unique specimen by all accounts. But if he was getting payed to play an international eligible for France....then maybe he would help oversee a resurgence in French youth which rewards them with a JWC like England and Wales recently contested.

Some coaches support their players in internationals:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...Leicester-Tigers-coach-Richard-Cockerill.html

I thought he would of been happy they returned fit and healthy. Maybe he didnt get the email from his owner advocating resistance to Tigers players playing for England.

Carry on lads....rubbish examples so far and no evidence as to what is being suggested.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

To blame that on the current Premiership money orientated setup with rich owners....Jeez some are really clutching at straws here.

I guess FA Chariman Greg Dyke was clutching at straws when he said England had to change their football model so.........

 

[St George]

I guess FA Chariman Greg Dyke was clutching at straws when he said England had to change their football model so.........

No he wasnt....he and others have been suggesting a throwback to player quotas whereby teams have to player a certain number of England & Wales qualified players.

But that would contravene EU laws and could be construde as restraint of trade. Maybe he should take a leaf out of the RFU/PRL agreement and propose paying teams to develop England eligible players. But unfortunately the FA dont have enough money to influence football owners, as their G & T bills are so high.

Rugby and Football are chalk and cheese in that respect, and i cannot for the life of me see the status quo changing whereby clubs become richer than the RFU.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Jeez....is that it? Show me a professional sport where owners or interested parties allow their teams to be "weakened" just for the international game. Most other sports run alongside their international games or have designated windows like football. Rugby administration is still amateur in its approach to both formats.

Erm... Rugby... in the leagues where you have Union controlled teams!?

 

[siochain]

Stay with ERC and change the qualification criteria with a two tier cup format.

Concessions have been made lets get on with it.

 

[bertiec]

I have no sky, nor will I ever have again. The thing is they have a habit of moving goal posts, I had a contract for every thing sky broadcast in the UK. Then.... we will be charging extra for this then that then the other. Contract was worth spit. They are asking far to much for me to justify (two girls at uni and successive pay cuts etc)
so if its on sky it does not exist. If the prem and internationals go to them thats the end of watching rugby on tv as far as I am concerned. They can stuff their dish where the sun dont shine.

 

[Tony Manx]

I have no sky, nor will I ever have again. The thing is they have a habit of moving goal posts, I had a contract for every thing sky broadcast in the UK. Then.... we will be charging extra for this then that then the other. Contract was worth spit. They are asking far to much for me to justify (two girls at uni and successive pay cuts etc)
so if its on sky it does not exist. If the prem and internationals go to them thats the end of watching rugby on tv as far as I am concerned. They can stuff their dish where the sun dont shine.

My mate cancelled his sub to them also but they kept calling and asking him to reconsider............he now has Sky full service TV wise for less than half what I am paying by sheer bloodymindness negotiating as they do not want to lose subscribers............when they come back to you must be worth a go!!