[EOYT] Italy vs. Argentina 23/11/13

[Big Ewis]

I think Italy is better psychologically speaking than Argentina. Italy comes from a win and they had a very good performance in the past Six Nations, wich is the most important competition for them. Argentina in the other hand, comes from 8 defeats in a row. One could argue that Argentina only played with the best teams recently, that is the SANZAR nations and the two best teams in Europe at the moment... and because of that they lost almost all their matches in the year, but seriously being defeated by those big margins vs South Africa, Australia and recently Wales... there are no excuses for that. Also Italy will be playing home, so they got a big chance to pull the upset here, I think they will win by +15/10 points.

Aspry, you're wrong.
Italy are nowhere near better than Argentina psychologically. Trust me.
Italy started the year with a big win at home against France. They were playing fine defense, scoring constructed tries, outsmarting the opponent, making kicks, even gathered and scored 2 drop goals, holding in the scrum, and ultimately held off a strong resurgence from the French around the last 10 minutes. They looked in complete control, ready to challenge, utterly professional, and Orquera unquestionably played the game of his life.

The next week, they go to Scotland, a team that's had its struggles, and concede 4 tries and a 34-10 battering. They play like shyt again in Rome against Wales, some horribly messy parts that match. 9-26.

Then, they decide they'll be good again in Twickenham of all places in European Rugby. They score 1 try to none, play very solid defense, nearly scored a second England can seriously thank God and held a whole 80minutes and applied pressure on an England side that looked clumsy, fairly out of control and nervous. 18-11 home side.
Finally, a solid home effort against Ireland for their first win ever.

In the summer Quadrangular, the only thing they did well was the scrum, thus perpetuating the reputation that Italians can only win at home. They couldn't play for shyt, Aspry, a disaster is not too strong a word. Lost all games, two complete blowouts and one tight game against fellow 6N Scotland.

This past November, they've shown the same lameness on defense and complete inability to hold a Tier 1 attack at all:
50 points and 7 tries conceded against Australia, then a narrow 6point win against Fiji allowing 5 tries...

They've been a disaster for the past few months.

Argentina in comparison:

Argentina have managed good results away from home, contrary to Italy. A one point loss in Australia, a decent effort in NZ. You say there's no excuse for the way Argentina's been playing, I beg to differ: there are all too many excuses, and I don't even know all the details about Puma Rugby atm:
Lobbe is the most important player on that side by far. They play better when he's there, they need his leadership, his work at the breakdown, his experience. His importance to the Pumas is primordial. The terrible coach they've had all this time, the defense has been God-awful in matches, and the attack has been completely dead most of the way all year. Their interim coach atm isn't solving any issues. In fact, they look a lot more lost now.
And add big injuries throughout on a team that's struggling as it is and doesn't have much depth.
With the quality players Argentina has, forwards and backs, there's no way in Hell they should be bad right now. But all the chemistry is gone, and they have little-to-no plan at all, and have become a Tier 2 nation.

There's a point where when you're losing like that and you're used to good results, you just can't hold a full 80min, and I think they've dragged themselves a bit lately, but have shown huge heart and tremendous effort many times this year.

So there are very good reasons why the Pumas have been inconsistent and downright bad this year. There aren't for Italy. They've been the same players, same coach, same everything. They just suck.

 

[Aspry]

Aspry, you're wrong.
Italy are nowhere near better than Argentina psychologically. Trust me.
Italy started the year with a big win at home against France. They were playing fine defense, scoring constructed tries, outsmarting the opponent, making kicks, even gathered and scored 2 drop goals, holding in the scrum, and ultimately held off a strong resurgence from the French around the last 10 minutes. They looked in complete control, ready to challenge, utterly professional, and Orquera unquestionably played the game of his life.

The next week, they go to Scotland, a team that's had its struggles, and concede 4 tries and a 34-10 battering. They play like shyt again in Rome against Wales, some horribly messy parts that match. 9-26.

Then, they decide they'll be good again in Twickenham of all places in European Rugby. They score 1 try to none, play very solid defense, nearly scored a second England can seriously thank God and held a whole 80minutes and applied pressure on an England side that looked clumsy, fairly out of control and nervous. 18-11 home side.
Finally, a solid home effort against Ireland for their first win ever.

In the summer Quadrangular, the only thing they did well was the scrum, thus perpetuating the reputation that Italians can only win at home. They couldn't play for shyt, Aspry, a disaster is not too strong a word. Lost all games, two complete blowouts and one tight game against fellow 6N Scotland.

This past November, they've shown the same lameness on defense and complete inability to hold a Tier 1 attack at all:
50 points and 7 tries conceded against Australia, then a narrow 6point win against Fiji allowing 5 tries...

They've been a disaster for the past few months.

Argentina in comparison:

Argentina have managed good results away from home, contrary to Italy. A one point loss in Australia, a decent effort in NZ. You say there's no excuse for the way Argentina's been playing, I beg to differ: there are all too many excuses, and I don't even know all the details about Puma Rugby atm:
Lobbe is the most important player on that side by far. They play better when he's there, they need his leadership, his work at the breakdown, his experience. His importance to the Pumas is primordial. The terrible coach they've had all this time, the defense has been God-awful in matches, and the attack has been completely dead most of the way all year. Their interim coach atm isn't solving any issues. In fact, they look a lot more lost now.
And add big injuries throughout on a team that's struggling as it is and doesn't have much depth.
With the quality players Argentina has, forwards and backs, there's no way in Hell they should be bad right now. But all the chemistry is gone, and they have little-to-no plan at all, and have become a Tier 2 nation.

There's a point where when you're losing like that and you're used to good results, you just can't hold a full 80min, and I think they've dragged themselves a bit lately, but have shown huge heart and tremendous effort many times this year.

So there are very good reasons why the Pumas have been inconsistent and downright bad this year. There aren't for Italy. They've been the same players, same coach, same everything. They just suck.

Well, I thought Italy did okay in the Six Nations this year considering their usual standarts, a victory against France and Ireland isn't something normal for them and they didn't get the wooden spoon, so it was an okay performance from them. They did played a couple of bad matches where they allowed big amounts of points, but if you compare the Italy squad with the rest of the 6N teams you'll realized that they don't have such a big pool off good players to select an they only count with like 4 or 5 world class players.

About the summer quadrangular, they did struggle a lot in there. But I insist that the major competition that Italy has is the 6N, so I think the quadrangular isn't that much important for them and they lost by big margins to Samoa and South Africa, two teams that are way better than the Azzurri. How much points did they allowed vs SA? 40? because to the same team and playing also away the Pumas allowed 73 points... remember that. Oh, you said Italy only seems to win when they play at home, well you just scare me even more xD, since they're playing in Rome so their chances to pull the upset are even bigger than I thought.

They allowed 50 points vs Australia right, but remember that we allowed 57 also playing at home and we score less points than them. The Fiji test was a bit bizzare, I agree that Fiji should have won if their controlled their discipline... but anyways, they got the win.. and coming from a win is always better than coming from a complete thrash (including 8 defeats in a row), at least from the psychological view.

If you compare both carefully you'll realized that both teams sucks right now, but Italy is in better shape.. they almost got their full team to play whilst Argentina will play with only the half of them.... And Italy is playing home. I sincerely think they got more chances to win this.

 

[Big Ewis]

If you compare both carefully you'll realized that both teams sucks right now, but Italy is in better shape.. they almost got their full team to play whilst Argentina will play with only the half of them.... And Italy is playing home. I sincerely think they got more chances to win this.

well I agree with everything but this. Again, Italy are not in better shape. The fact that they produced two good games at home the entire year doesn't mean much right now. 2013 6N Italy and post-2013 6N Italy are completely different teams for some reason. And What I'm saying is sure the Pumas have struggled like crazy this year, but their entire situation is chaos. Italy has absolutely ZERO chaos. They had a pretty great 2012 EOYT, a relatively successful 6N (of course counting on France and Ireland playing their worst Rugby in years) and should have had lots to prove in the Quadrangular. Scotland and Samoa were definitely within reach. 40-10 against Samoa is a terrible result for a 6N side.
So I'm saying they were on a high from the 2012 November, had a fairly fine 6N, and then drop badly in the summer and sink completely so far this November. Last year they had Australia on their knees praying they don't make the game-tying penalty. 19-22 final score. This year, they host a highly dubious Wallaby squad and ship 50. There's absolutely no good reason for that. There are, as exposed above, some VERY good reasons for the Pumas' struggles.
And Italy gets a 6-point, allowing 5 tries and 31 pts from Fiji at home, despite the 10 yellows...that's just baaaaad.

So you say "psychologically better" than the Pumas. No way Aspry.

As for this match: I don't know because both teams are really in Tier 2 mode atm. It's safe to say they have played terrible defense. Italy did show some attack so far this November...
I would say Italy by 5.

 

[Aspry]

Have a look to our unavailable players for this test:

Patricio Albacete (Toulouse, France)
Marcelo Bosch (Saracens, England)
Gonzalo Camacho (Leicester, England)
Agustín Creevy (Worcester, England)
Santiago Fernández (Bayonne, France)
Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe (Toulon, France)
Juan Figallo (Montpellier, France)
Juan Martín Hernández (Racing Métro, France)
Leonardo Senatore (Worcester, England)
Gonzalo Tiesi (Newcastle, England)

Really shocking... Seriously, we're going to line up a mix between the seniors and the Jaguars for this match.

 

[Big Ewis]

wuuuuuuuuut ?!!!....OK, didn't know it was that bad. Well Italy then.
Let's put it this way: if Italy lose against the Jaguars, they should automatically disqualify from the 6N for 2014.

 

[Superalexmarket]

wuuuuuuuuut ?!!!....OK, didn't know it was that bad. Well Italy then.
Let's put it this way: if Italy lose against the Jaguars, they should automatically disqualify from the 6N for 2014.

The wooden spoon of the 6 N should be play an eliminatory, with the winner of the European Cup of Nations (Georgia or Rumania) to decide who will play the next 6 N.
And the same in TRC, Argentina (no escape) playing v Samoa or the winner of the Pacific Tournament.

 

[Jaguares]

No I didn't see Agulla playing centre in Bath. Anyways it doesn't matter, my point is really clear, having a bigger pool of players to select is always better. If you consider them bad then you simply don't select them and that's it. They can join to the team when the good players get injuries or club issues that forbids them to play.

Nope mate, you're wrong. All those players (except Messi, as I already mention it) developed their football in Argentina. They learn how to play in Argentina, the first time they kicked a ball was here and the first time they played professionally was also here. Saying the national team is product of europe is just wrong... specially when Europe is fulled by South American players. There's at least 2 or 3 playing in the important teams. They basically play with each other, there's not really a European style of play, since more than the half of their players aren't from Europe.

You can say what you want about the argentine league, that's subjective. Everybody will have a different opinon, for example me, I don't consider Trezeguet or Camoranesi bad players (both world champions) neither Riquelme or Maxi Rodriguez. But is okay though, I really don't care since you can't compare it with Europe due the money they move there, wich is the main reason why the youngest players from South America migrates there.



That's funny you say that, when Martino, Bielsa, Simeone, Pochettino, they're all from Argentina. Martino coaches Messi and Mascherano, Pellegrini (Chilean) coaches Aguero, Zabaleta, Demichelis... see what I mean??

Before you reply this message have in count that I probably won't answer you back since I don't want to change the real topic in here, wich happens to be the Italy vs Argentina Rugby test match.

A ver campeón, como no seguís la Premiership te comento, Agulla jugó varios partidos de centro y fue uno de los mejores backs del equipo, tiene apenas 22 partidos en Bath y lleva anotados 65 puntos, es decir 13 tries en 22 partidos, una cifra altísima. Varios de ellos jugando como centro. Agulla hoy es más que Canale, sin dudas.

El otro punto, yo digo que el campeonato argentino es una MIERDA. De los que citaste el unico que está en buen nivel es Maxi Rodriguez, Riquelme es un anciano que juega 2 partidos completos al año, igual para Trezeguet y Camoranesi es recontra puteado por los hinchas de Racing.

La realidad es que el hincha de Independiente no pudo disfrutar a Aguero en su equipo, el hincha de River no pudo disfrutar a Higuain en River, lo mismo para los canallas con relación a Di Maria. Entonces si los jugadores juegan 20 partidos en sus equipos y se van a Europa, no sirve de nada, no son jugadores tuyos porque no contribuyeron a la grandeza de tu equipo.

Mascherano por ejemplo en River no es nadie, nunca ganó nada. Si te pones a analizar desde la generación de los 90s, que los jugadores tienen más años en Europa que en Argentina, la generación de los Batistuta, Piojo Lopez, Simeone, etc tienen muchos más años jugando en Europa que en Argentina, y eso se incrementó en estos años con la apertura de nuevos mercados como Rusia, Ucrania y demás.

Si analizas los equipos campeones del 78 y 86, la MAYORÃA de los jugadores jugaban en el futbol argentino, hoy es al reves, la mayoría de los jugadores juegan en Europa. Si armas una selección 100% de jugadores del futbol argentino, no le ganas ni a Jordania. Cual sería el equipo? Clemente Rodriguez, Funes Mori, Burrito Martinez, etc,etc. Por lo que la selección argentina de futbol es producto de jugadores que juegan en Europa.

Lo de los tecnicos que decis tambien es mentira, Martino agarró hace pocos meses el Barcelona y no es común que un técnico argentino dirija un equipo grande de Europa. Son poquitos los tecnicos argentinos en Europa.

A lo que voy a es que la selección argentina es futbol tiene a la mayoría de sus figuras jugando en Europa, entonces si ni siquiera el futbol argentino es capaz de retener a sus maximas figuras, no le pidamos al rugby que lo pueda hacer. Exista o no una Liga Profesional de Rugby en Argentina, los mejores siempre van a jugar en Europa, porque en el futbol existe una Liga Profesional y aún así los mejores están en Europa. Entonces que sea profesional o no el rugby en Argentina en relación a los Pumas no es el EJE de la discusión porque SIEMPRE los mejores van a jugar en Europa, con o sin Liga Profesional.

Saludos

 

[Big Ewis]

The wooden spoon of the 6 N should be play an eliminatory, with the winner of the European Cup of Nations (Georgia or Rumania) to decide who will play the next 6 N.
And the same in TRC, Argentina (no escape) playing v Samoa or the winner of the Pacific Tournament.

ah, hey, welcome back.
Well that sure sounds more *fair*...but I dunno...

 

[Superalexmarket]

A ver campeón, como no seguís la Premiership te comento, Agulla jugó varios partidos de centro y fue uno de los mejores backs del equipo, tiene apenas 22 partidos en Bath y lleva anotados 65 puntos, es decir 13 tries en 22 partidos, una cifra altísima. Varios de ellos jugando como centro. Agulla hoy es más que Canale, sin dudas.

El otro punto, yo digo que el campeonato argentino es una MIERDA. De los que citaste el unico que está en buen nivel es Maxi Rodriguez, Riquelme es un anciano que juega 2 partidos completos al año, igual para Trezeguet y Camoranesi es recontra puteado por los hinchas de Racing.

La realidad es que el hincha de Independiente no pudo disfrutar a Aguero en su equipo, el hincha de River no pudo disfrutar a Higuain en River, lo mismo para los canallas con relación a Di Maria. Entonces si los jugadores juegan 20 partidos en sus equipos y se van a Europa, no sirve de nada, no son jugadores tuyos porque no contribuyeron a la grandeza de tu equipo.

Mascherano por ejemplo en River no es nadie, nunca ganó nada. Si te pones a analizar desde la generación de los 90s, que los jugadores tienen más años en Europa que en Argentina, la generación de los Batistuta, Piojo Lopez, Simeone, etc tienen muchos más años jugando en Europa que en Argentina, y eso se incrementó en estos años con la apertura de nuevos mercados como Rusia, Ucrania y demás.

Si analizas los equipos campeones del 78 y 86, la MAYORÃA de los jugadores jugaban en el futbol argentino, hoy es al reves, la mayoría de los jugadores juegan en Europa. Si armas una selección 100% de jugadores del futbol argentino, no le ganas ni a Jordania. Cual sería el equipo? Clemente Rodriguez, Funes Mori, Burrito Martinez, etc,etc. Por lo que la selección argentina de futbol es producto de jugadores que juegan en Europa.

Lo de los tecnicos que decis tambien es mentira, Martino agarró hace pocos meses el Barcelona y no es común que un técnico argentino dirija un equipo grande de Europa. Son poquitos los tecnicos argentinos en Europa.

A lo que voy a es que la selección argentina es futbol tiene a la mayoría de sus figuras jugando en Europa, entonces si ni siquiera el futbol argentino es capaz de retener a sus maximas figuras, no le pidamos al rugby que lo pueda hacer. Exista o no una Liga Profesional de Rugby en Argentina, los mejores siempre van a jugar en Europa, porque en el futbol existe una Liga Profesional y aún así los mejores están en Europa. Entonces que sea profesional o no el rugby en Argentina en relación a los Pumas no es el EJE de la discusión porque SIEMPRE los mejores van a jugar en Europa, con o sin Liga Profesional.

Saludos

Guauu!!! Impresionante manejo del castellano Conrad!! y muy Argento!! Felicitaciones!! (Alguien te ayudó?)

 

[Jaguares]

Guauu!!! Impresionante manejo del castellano Conrad!! y muy Argento!! Felicitaciones!! (Alguien te ayudó?)

Si, mi tía Aida de San Vicente (Si ves el show del futbol vas a entender, jaaaaa)

 

[Big Ewis]

To be fair to Italy, Samoa were playing really, really well that game last summer, and they allowed for their athleticism to take complete control of the 80minutes:

 

[marianodan]

WTF the user Conrad Smith is argentine?

 

[LittleGuy]

WTF the user Conrad Smith is argentine?

Yeah, it's kind of been out there for a while.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yeah, it's kind of been out there for a while.

oh...has it ?!...missed that...I noticed English wasn't his first language before but I missed the actual epic revelation. Was it epic, Little Guy ?

 

[LittleGuy]

oh...has it ?!...missed that...I noticed English wasn't his first language before but I missed the actual epic revelation. Was it epic, Little Guy ?

No not really, I knew for sure when he got angry when I claimed the Pumas team that played in South Africa in The Rugby Championship were actually Uruguay in disguise.

 

[Aspry]

Team comfirmed with five changes:


15 Joaquín Tuculet
14 Lucas González Amorosino
13 Horacio Agulla
12 Gabriel Ascárate
11 Juan Imhoff
10 Nicolás Sánchez
9 Martín Landajo
8 Benjamín Macome
7 Julio Farías Cabello
6 Juan Manuel Leguizamón (c)
5 Mariano Galarza
4 Manuel Carizza
3 Maximiliano Bustos
2 Eusebio Guiñazú
1 Marcos Ayerza

Replacements: 16 Santiago Iglesias Valdez, 17 Nahuel Lobo, 18 Matías Díaz, 19 Tomás Lavanini, 20 Pablo Matera, 21 Tomás Cubelli, 22 Javier Rojas, 23 Santiago Cordero.

I don't get why they keep insisting with Farias.. Are they gonna take him to the world cup in 2015? He's 36 years of age, come on... Give the young players a chance to play, we need to think a little bit in the future... we should be building a competitive squad for the next RWC. Same goes for Lavanini, he should start instead of Carizza who was awful vs Wales.

The centers couple is entirely new.. Let's see how Agulla performs in that position. Nice to see Macome getting in the starting XV.

I think that in the paper it looks better than the Italian team, though one would have thought that it would be a much stronger team.

 

[Big Ewis]

Sorry Argentina, but I now know for a fact you will lose this match. And it has nothing to do with injuries, the transitional period this is, Italy being at home....it's solely because of this,of course:

2012: Argentina won 37-22 in San Juan
2010: Argentina won 22-16 in Verona
2008: Argentina won 22-14 in Torino
2008: Italy won 13-12 in Cordoba
2007: Argentina won 24-6 in Mendoza
2006: Argentina won 23-16 in Rome
2005: Argentina won 39-22 in Genova
2005: Italy won 30-29 in Cordoba
2005: Argentina won 35-21 in Salta
2002: Argentina won 36-6 in Rome
2001: Argentina won 38-17 in Buenos Aires

Call this numerology if you want, but clearly the pattern is evident even to the most narrow-minded science-bound individual. Italy win every 4 matches. It takes 3 Argie wins in a row for Italy to win theirs.
I find it quite funny we've been sitting here discussing this match-up in detail when nobody has had the common sense to look this up. Hah, I feel a little silly right now, but thank Dionysus I finally gathered my spirits and could lift us from bleak obscurity.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

R10000 on Italy then!

EDIT: I see Italy are very slight favorites; 0.95 ahead of 1.00.

On 2nd thought I'm not going to place a bet. Not a large one.

Mindboggingly the same bookie has SA 0.35 ahead of 2.5 France..

 

[Superalexmarket]

Sorry Argentina, but I now know for a fact you will lose this match. And it has nothing to do with injuries, the transitional period this is, Italy being at home....it's solely because of this,of course:

2012: Argentina won 37-22 in San Juan
2010: Argentina won 22-16 in Verona
2008: Argentina won 22-14 in Torino
2008: Italy won 13-12 in Cordoba
2007: Argentina won 24-6 in Mendoza
2006: Argentina won 23-16 in Rome
2005: Argentina won 39-22 in Genova
2005: Italy won 30-29 in Cordoba
2005: Argentina won 35-21 in Salta
2002: Argentina won 36-6 in Rome
2001: Argentina won 38-17 in Buenos Aires

Call this numerology if you want, but clearly the pattern is evident even to the most narrow-minded science-bound individual. Italy win every 4 matches. It takes 3 Argie wins in a row for Italy to win theirs.
I find it quite funny we've been sitting here discussing this match-up in detail when nobody has had the common sense to look this up. Hah, I feel a little silly right now, but thank Dionysus I finally gathered my spirits and could lift us from bleak obscurity.

I only see Italy winning in Cordoba so I'm sorry...you're wrong ...Pumas WIN!!!
Now talking serious, Italy will win this match, and it's gonna be the worst year of the Pumas in the last 20 years. I hope the reconstruccion of argentine rugby next year.

 

[Big Ewis]

certainly the worst year of the Pumas in a very long time, possibly 20 years. Definitely their worst of the new millennium. When on thinks of where they were at at the end of the 2007 RWC, but even more recently the high expectations from their first TRC last year in 2012...such a shame, but it had to happen, and now they must react.