England wouldn't have gone out

[againstallodds]

Am I totally missing something. There are many threads on here and similar forums and articles in the sports pages that say England were minutes away from leaving the world cup. This was due to Scotlands 9 point advantage.

Now unless the IRB have create some new system for working out who goes and who stays when points are tied, Englands superior points difference kept them in it. Only a Scottish bonus point or an Argentina bonus point would have sent England home.

Am I missing something? Even the normally intelligent Eddie Butler referred to England nearly going home in his Guardian article

 

[Seaton]

Yes, they introduced head-to-head

So in the event of a tie, the winner of the fixture between the sides goes through.

 

[Peat]

Yes, they introduced head-to-head

So in the event of a tie, the winner of the fixture between the sides goes through.

I forget exactly how it works, but ITV were reporting it as Scotland had to win by 8 - no doubt to the fact every team would have ended up on 14 points with all of the three having won one and lost one against each other.

England were briefly far enough behind Scotland quite late on in the match, but only briefly, and by the time we scored the try we were going through anyway.

However, that would have meant playing NZ, which would be good as knocked out really.

 

[againstallodds]

Did they? So head to head was considered before points difference?

The scenario could have been that Eng, Scot and Arg were all on the same points. Eng beat Arg so Arg go out. Arg beat Sco so Sco go out. Sco beat Eng so Eng go out. Anyone of those scenarios was pos

 

[petehooker]

Good spot. I think it came down to expectations that Argentina would achieve a bonus point in their win against Georgia.

By the way could you point me in the direction of this normally intelligent Eddie Butler who writes for the Guardian. I'm only familiar with the one-eyed, ludicrously self important one who writes for the Observer.

 

[againstallodds]

The Scotaln 8 points thing was significant to Soctland staying in and nothing else as that would have deprived England a losing bonus point. The argies would have needed a try bonus point to knock England out surely. I know it hasn't happened and England will now march on to WC glory, but the thought of what could have been sends shudders....

 

[againstallodds]

Good spot. I think it came down to expectations that Argentina would achieve a bonus point in their win against Georgia.

By the way could you point me in the direction of this normally intelligent Eddie Butler who writes for the Guardian. I'm only familiar with the one-eyed, ludicrously self important one who writes for the Observer.

Ok, so I am not going mad.

As for Eddie, I am a big fan to be honest. Not so much as a player but as a witty wordsmith. I personally don't find him one eyed although his latest Guardian article is a bit out of character. EB + BM = ultimate commentary team

 

[againstallodds]

The Scotaln 8 points thing was significant to Soctland staying in and nothing else as that would have deprived England a losing bonus point. The argies would have needed a try bonus point to knock England out surely. I know it hasn't happened and England will now march on to WC glory, but the thought of what could have been sends shudders....

the spelling in this is atrocious but you know what I mean

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

England were on 14
Scotland were on 10
Argentina were on 10

The scenario that could have seen England bow out early;

Scotland beat England and deny them any form of bonus point (lose by 8 or more and without scoring 4 tries) which was a possibility at some stage.
Also, Argentina had to win and score 4 or more tries in the process as ending even on points with England wouldn't have been good enough as England beat them.

If the above occured

Argentina would have been on 15
Scotland and England both on 14
and because Scotland had beat England the 1st tie breaker being the result in the match featuring the tied teams, Scotland would have gone through ahead of England.

It didn't happen and you are in it with as much a chance as any other team.

 

[againstallodds]

Thanks for the detail stormer2010. Pretty much what I thought. I really hope England improve and think they will. Thankfully, France are equally disappointing and Wales / Ireland are very beatable as long as we play our best.

 

[petehooker]

Ok, so I am not going mad.

As for Eddie, I am a big fan to be honest. Not so much as a player but as a witty wordsmith. I personally don't find him one eyed although his latest Guardian article is a bit out of character. EB + BM = ultimate commentary team

EB + BM = ultimate commentary team because they each only have one eye and so add up to two eyes between them. Leave Butler on his own and in my experience this weekends article is absolutely in character.

 

[againstallodds]

EB + BM = ultimate commentary team because they each only have one eye and so add up to two eyes between them. Leave Butler on his own and in my experience this weekends article is absolutely in character.

We'll agree to disagree then....

 

[petehooker]

We'll agree to disagree then....

Its probably because I'm one eyed about Mr Butler

 

[Tricia McMillan]

England were on 14
Scotland were on 10
Argentina were on 10

The scenario that could have seen England bow out early;

Scotland beat England and deny them any form of bonus point (lose by 8 or more and without scoring 4 tries) which was a possibility at some stage.
Also, Argentina had to win and score 4 or more tries in the process as ending even on points with England wouldn't have been good enough as England beat them.

If the above occured

Argentina would have been on 15
Scotland and England both on 14
and because Scotland had beat England the 1st tie breaker being the result in the match featuring the tied teams, Scotland would have gone through ahead of England.

It didn't happen and you are in it with as much a chance as any other team.

Everything he said.

Also, the funny thing is, even if Scotland had managed to pull of, say, a 12-3 victory against England, the fact that Argentina failed to pick up the try bonus point in defeating Georgia the next day saw Scotland fall well short on required points difference, as that would have put all three teams on 14 points, each having beaten one of the other two and lost to the other, and it would have seen England win the group and Argentina take 2nd place anyway.

Also, Scotland weren't mathematically eliminated when they lost to England, since they picked up the bonus point. Georgia could have done the unthinkable and beaten Argentina by more than 7 points to eliminate them and see Scotland through instead. No one considered that scenario very likely however, so after the England-Scotland game everyone considered Scotland effectively eliminated.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Everything he said.

Also, the funny thing is, even if Scotland had managed to pull of, say, a 12-3 victory against England, the fact that Argentina failed to pick up the try bonus point in defeating Georgia the next day saw Scotland fall well short on required points difference, as that would have put all three teams on 14 points, each having beaten one of the other two and lost to the other, and it would have seen England win the group and Argentina take 2nd place anyway.

Also, Scotland weren't mathematically eliminated when they lost to England, since they picked up the bonus point. Georgia could have done the unthinkable and beaten Argentina by more than 7 points to eliminate them and see Scotland through instead. No one considered that scenario very likely however, so after the England-Scotland game everyone considered Scotland effectively eliminated.

Thanks for adding that, Tricia.