England U20 Squad - The rise of the Steroid Guzzling Gym Monkey Oppressors mk5

[Darwin]

I've noticed that; I think the Kiwis generally have less returning players than any other nation. I've also noticed the NH teams tend to have more players a year young.

This year, very few of the squad are a year young... oh wait, hang on, done my research, am lying a fair bit. Out of the starting 15 only 4 are a year young; Ford, Clifford and the two props. Both props on the bench are also a year young, as is the hooker, as is Stooke... as is every single sub bar Heathcote and Skuse; and being pedantic Watson is two years young.

I definitely feel extra maturity is an extra advantage; I also think that spreading your U20 appearances is no bad thing for development. Yet, if they are the best players, then lets roll with it - and certainly there might be advantages down the line from the amount of time Ford-Mills-Daly have spent together, as an example. There is something of a continuity thing going on for sure, they often favour the young player in reserve situations (I think George, Vunipola the older and Cowan-Dickie have all benefited from this) but to a large extent we're just picking the best. I mean, you don't pick 4 props that age just for continuity! Looking at the wider squad, Morris the third hooker is also a year young, while Hill, Nowell and Jennings are also a year young. There's a couple of other lads outside the squad who I think might get brought in who are a year young (Slade and Sisi in particular).

I think that is the main reason that the NZRFU don't tend to pick young players - they see it as a vital development tool, and want to give as many players as possible a chance at this level. I understand the NZRFU even has a policy that they will only select players in the final year that they are eligible, unless there are exceptional circumstances (e.g. a player is phenomenally talented, or they have a major weakness in a certain position). Obviously NZ has enough talent that this policy does not affect them too adversely at the U20 World Cup.

This might be the year. I hope so. The backline is about as good as it's ever been, which might well be key; we often get parity for periods with the Baby Blacks, but can never make them pay. Hopefully this time...

Oh, and its not quite full strength in that Spencer will be with the Saxons now - and possibly with England in the summer. Hope Cane isn't with the ABs in the Summer, watching him and Kvesic on the same pitch would be good entertainment; then again, I would like to win, so...

Cane vs Kvesic would be a good match-up. Do you think Kvesic will be starting at 7 though? I know he's more than capable there, I just noted they have Chris Walker starting there in this match (and I understand Nuttley is another quality option at 6 or 7...). I really hope Cane is available for the U20's as we may well need him. Incidentally Australia will possibly have Liam Gill back at 7 for the third year in a row (assuming he himself isn't playing for Australia). He's a phenomenal player at the breakdown - I'd suggest he's as good as any player in world rugby in that area. His only downside is that he lacks the size of Sam Cane, so doesn't have the powerful running game that Cane possess.

Incidentally, any reason you think this is the year? Does this crop look noticeably weaker?

England were very close to winning last season - indeed we needed to rely on some phenomenal goal-kicking to confirm our victory (where in previous years we just scored lots of tries...). I thought last seasons NZ team was pretty good, so given England looked to have retained approximately 50% of the team that all but matched that team, we need to have a strong team this year to compete.

In terms of the quality of this years crop... I'm not really sure. I haven't been following age grade rugby as much this season, so many of the players are unknown to me. In previous years there have been at least 4-5 that have already had experience at ITM Cup level, but this year there is only three (Scott Eade, and the already mentioned Cane and Perenara). Maybe it is simply a case of me being nervous as I don't really know what the team will look like! There will certainly be some talent in the following years team - the likes of Ardie Savea (younger brother of Julian, and currently in the NZ Sevens team), Joe Webber (whose already played several Sevens tournaments already), and Michael Collins (signed to the Otago ITM Cup squad as an 18 year old). In theory they could all be picked this year, but because of the NZRFU's selection policy they may not. I'm sure once I get a bit more familiar with some of the players I will feel a lot more comfortable!

 

[Peat]

I think that is the main reason that the NZRFU don't tend to pick young players - they see it as a vital development tool, and want to give as many players as possible a chance at this level. I understand the NZRFU even has a policy that they will only select players in the final year that they are eligible, unless there are exceptional circumstances (e.g. a player is phenomenally talented, or they have a major weakness in a certain position). Obviously NZ has enough talent that this policy does not affect them too adversely at the U20 World Cup.

We've noticed.

Certainly if you can do it that way it makes sense.

Cane vs Kvesic would be a good match-up. Do you think Kvesic will be starting at 7 though? I know he's more than capable there, I just noted they have Chris Walker starting there in this match (and I understand Nuttley is another quality option at 6 or 7...). I really hope Cane is available for the U20's as we may well need him. Incidentally Australia will possibly have Liam Gill back at 7 for the third year in a row (assuming he himself isn't playing for Australia). He's a phenomenal player at the breakdown - I'd suggest he's as good as any player in world rugby in that area. His only downside is that he lacks the size of Sam Cane, so doesn't have the powerful running game that Cane possess.

Almost definitely not tbh, as we've got plenty of 7s - and hey, when you've got a 7 who's big enough to play as a 6 and a front five that can carry any potential loss of power, you might as well go for it (i.e. Richard Hill). However they'll still be butting heads at the breakdown, so the competition won't go away there. I haven't seen Gill yet, although if he's that good, I might go looking for clips. Isn't the youngest Faingaa also quite a good flanker (although won't be back next year).

Having just looked at their stats - they're all the same height close enough, but Kvesic and Cane both have over a stone on Gill. In general the Aussie forwards look pretty light mind, reckon he'll bulk out a bit more with time.

England were very close to winning last season - indeed we needed to rely on some phenomenal goal-kicking to confirm our victory (where in previous years we just scored lots of tries...). I thought last seasons NZ team was pretty good, so given England looked to have retained approximately 50% of the team that all but matched that team, we need to have a strong team this year to compete.

Anscombe wasn't it? Metronomic. We'll see, but last year I think the England pack really had the better of the NZ pack, and gave the backs an armchair ride which they squandered somewhat. This year the backs will be better and wiser, but I'm not sure the pack will be able to repeat the stunt - that year was an exceptional pack, two of them are already in the Saxons and will probably be capped next season (Thomas and Launchbury) and I think a lot of the others aren't far behind. Only Kvesic really seems of that quality this year, although we'll see.

In terms of the quality of this years crop... I'm not really sure. I haven't been following age grade rugby as much this season, so many of the players are unknown to me. In previous years there have been at least 4-5 that have already had experience at ITM Cup level, but this year there is only three (Scott Eade, and the already mentioned Cane and Perenara). Maybe it is simply a case of me being nervous as I don't really know what the team will look like! There will certainly be some talent in the following years team - the likes of Ardie Savea (younger brother of Julian, and currently in the NZ Sevens team), Joe Webber (whose already played several Sevens tournaments already), and Michael Collins (signed to the Otago ITM Cup squad as an 18 year old). In theory they could all be picked this year, but because of the NZRFU's selection policy they may not. I'm sure once I get a bit more familiar with some of the players I will feel a lot more comfortable!

As noted, you're rarely short of talent here... do the NZ U20s have any games between now and the JWC?

 

[Darwin]

Almost definitely not tbh, as we've got plenty of 7s - and hey, when you've got a 7 who's big enough to play as a 6 and a front five that can carry any potential loss of power, you might as well go for it (i.e. Richard Hill). However they'll still be butting heads at the breakdown, so the competition won't go away there. I haven't seen Gill yet, although if he's that good, I might go looking for clips. Isn't the youngest Faingaa also quite a good flanker (although won't be back next year).

Having just looked at their stats - they're all the same height close enough, but Kvesic and Cane both have over a stone on Gill. In general the Aussie forwards look pretty light mind, reckon he'll bulk out a bit more with time.

He's certainly worth watching if you can find some clips of him - I think he is going to turn into quite a phenomenal player (not that Australia need him with Pocock!). I think he has had two starts at Super Rugby level: in his first start he matched up well with David Pocock, while in his second start he destroyed the Chiefs at the breakdown (and was awarded man of the match). Size is still and issue, but he seems to be still growing: when he was first in the Australia under 20's team (as a 17 year old) he was listed at 86kg, last season it was around 92kg, and I see his latest profile has him at 96kg (and he seems to have gained a few inches of height too). If he can get up to 100kg I think he will be fine. He doesn't have the strongest running game at this stage, but I'd take a 7 with his skills at the breakdown any day!

Colby Faingaa is another good young player Australia has. I don't think he's in the same class as Gill as a 7, but he is capable of playing all three loose-forward positions, and does have some good leadership skills too.

Anscombe wasn't it? Metronomic. We'll see, but last year I think the England pack really had the better of the NZ pack, and gave the backs an armchair ride which they squandered somewhat. This year the backs will be better and wiser, but I'm not sure the pack will be able to repeat the stunt - that year was an exceptional pack, two of them are already in the Saxons and will probably be capped next season (Thomas and Launchbury) and I think a lot of the others aren't far behind. Only Kvesic really seems of that quality this year, although we'll see.

Yeah that was Anscombe, he's probably the best kicker I've seen at age-group level. New Zealand has at times struggled with their goal-kicking at age grade level, but we do have a number of good options again this season, with the likes of Perenara, Eade, and Nikoro. All three are good kickers, but probably not at the same level as Anscombe! It will be interesting to see how the team match-up this year - I really enjoy the U20 RWC as I think it is the best quality rugby we get all year!

As noted, you're rarely short of talent here... do the NZ U20s have any games between now and the JWC?

They don't usually play many games before the tournament - they may play one warm-up against the likes of Samoa or Tonga, but I'm not sure.

 

[welshglory]

I heard that the younger U20's from NZ go to Europe or something for rugby and life experience. Then when they come back they're in a much better position to be playing rugby at that standard.

Also good news to see Anthony Watson starting for England. This guy is a star in the making!

 

[Darwin]

I heard that the younger U20's from NZ go to Europe or something for rugby and life experience. Then when they come back they're in a much better position to be playing rugby at that standard.

Also good news to see Anthony Watson starting for England. This guy is a star in the making!

Well you heard wrong :lol:

 

[welshglory]

I mean they go around travelling and stuff.
I'm sure i read it in an article somewhere. Might be for the Crusaders academy

 

[Darwin]

I mean they go around travelling and stuff.
I'm sure i read it in an article somewhere. Might be for the Crusaders academy

The odd one might do some travelling, but it's certainly not something that is done systematically (for development purposes) as far as I know.

 

[HowieLO6]

I heard that the younger U20's from NZ go to Europe or something for rugby and life experience. Then when they come back they're in a much better position to be playing rugby at that standard.

Also good news to see Anthony Watson starting for England. This guy is a star in the making!

Hopefully he'll get on for some significant playing time. Would be quite the electric Irish pair, at 14 and 15, if he gets some time on the field.

Not sure about Charlie Walker on the wing. Always thought he was a centre? Remember watching him line up against Daly and Yarde at 12 and 13, respectively, and thought he did a pretty solid job, despite the final result.

Surprised that Sisi isn't there though.

 

[Peat]

He's certainly worth watching if you can find some clips of him - I think he is going to turn into quite a phenomenal player (not that Australia need him with Pocock!). I think he has had two starts at Super Rugby level: in his first start he matched up well with David Pocock, while in his second start he destroyed the Chiefs at the breakdown (and was awarded man of the match). Size is still and issue, but he seems to be still growing: when he was first in the Australia under 20's team (as a 17 year old) he was listed at 86kg, last season it was around 92kg, and I see his latest profile has him at 96kg (and he seems to have gained a few inches of height too). If he can get up to 100kg I think he will be fine. He doesn't have the strongest running game at this stage, but I'd take a 7 with his skills at the breakdown any day!

Colby Faingaa is another good young player Australia has. I don't think he's in the same class as Gill as a 7, but he is capable of playing all three loose-forward positions, and does have some good leadership skills too.

Well I found a copy of last year's NZ-Aus U20 semi final, but the bugger didn't play that game! Will keep looking. I agree about 100kg, it seems to be the golden weight for opensides - any lighter, and they start to struggle when things get tighter. Little tanks! What's Gill's linking game like?

Yeah that was Anscombe, he's probably the best kicker I've seen at age-group level. New Zealand has at times struggled with their goal-kicking at age grade level, but we do have a number of good options again this season, with the likes of Perenara, Eade, and Nikoro. All three are good kickers, but probably not at the same level as Anscombe! It will be interesting to see how the team match-up this year - I really enjoy the U20 RWC as I think it is the best quality rugby we get all year!

Amen to that. Will be interesting to see how Anscombe goes in senior rugby; his goal kicking is phenomenal, but I'm not sure that the rest of his game was of the highest standard. Sounds like an ideal English poach Barrett's the back I expect to progress most from that.

They don't usually play many games before the tournament - they may play one warm-up against the likes of Samoa or Tonga, but I'm not sure.

A shame, you'd have thought they could at least play Australia regularly.

Well you heard wrong :lol:

The opposite's fairly common though :lol:

Hopefully he'll get on for some significant playing time. Would be quite the electric Irish pair, at 14 and 15, if he gets some time on the field.

Not sure about Charlie Walker on the wing. Always thought he was a centre? Remember watching him line up against Daly and Yarde at 12 and 13, respectively, and thought he did a pretty solid job, despite the final result.

Surprised that Sisi isn't there though.

Sisi's one that surprises me as well, not even in the full squad, considering the progress he's made already I'd have thought he was a shoe-in.

 

[Darwin]

Well I found a copy of last year's NZ-Aus U20 semi final, but the bugger didn't play that game! Will keep looking. I agree about 100kg, it seems to be the golden weight for opensides - any lighter, and they start to struggle when things get tighter. Little tanks! What's Gill's linking game like?

Gill got called back to play for the Reds half-way through the tournament, as they had quite a few injuries in their loosies. It was a bit disappointing, as I was looking forward to watching him matchup vs Cane in the semi-finals. Gill's linking game looked pretty good to me - I'm sure we will see a lot more of him this year with the Reds.

Amen to that. Will be interesting to see how Anscombe goes in senior rugby; his goal kicking is phenomenal, but I'm not sure that the rest of his game was of the highest standard. Sounds like an ideal English poach Barrett's the back I expect to progress most from that.

Yeah that is the general feeling in NZ too. Anscombe is an exceptional kicker, but Barrett is thought of as the player with more potential (and is actually a 10, despite playing very well at 15 during the U20 RWC). Anscombe and Barrett played directly against each other during last seasons ITM Cup, and Barrett looked by far the more complete player in that game (he was man of the match in a comprehensive 39-11 victory.). Both players look like they will get plenty of game-time this Super Rugby season: Anscombe will possibly be backing up Weepu at Blues (though may start with Weepu at halfback), while Barrett looks the favourite to start at 10 for the Hurricanes (though could get time at fullback too).

A shame, you'd have thought they could at least play Australia regularly.

We seem to play them a lot at schoolboy level, but for some reason don't at Under 20's level.

 

[Peat]

Gill got called back to play for the Reds half-way through the tournament, as they had quite a few injuries in their loosies. It was a bit disappointing, as I was looking forward to watching him matchup vs Cane in the semi-finals. Gill's linking game looked pretty good to me - I'm sure we will see a lot more of him this year with the Reds.

I haven't really watched much Super Rugby recently, guess it's time to rectify that. And the Ozzie lad they did play on the day looks pretty handy anyway. I have to say I love watching the Baby Blacks ruck. Just so quick and powerful. We're lightyears off it up here, absolutely lightyears.

Yeah that is the general feeling in NZ too. Anscombe is an exceptional kicker, but Barrett is thought of as the player with more potential (and is actually a 10, despite playing very well at 15 during the U20 RWC). Anscombe and Barrett played directly against each other during last seasons ITM Cup, and Barrett looked by far the more complete player in that game (he was man of the match in a comprehensive 39-11 victory.). Both players look like they will get plenty of game-time this Super Rugby season: Anscombe will possibly be backing up Weepu at Blues (though may start with Weepu at halfback), while Barrett looks the favourite to start at 10 for the Hurricanes (though could get time at fullback too).

I knew Barrett was mainly regarded as a 10, didn't know he was already that close to Super Rugby - because I thought most of your U20s normally take a year or to break through? Which makes the last point all the more bizarre, it's not like most of the Baby Blacks are needed for domestic rugby, you'd have thought getting them together for a few games could only be good for their development. Maybe its a financial issue?

 

[Darwin]

I haven't really watched much Super Rugby recently, guess it's time to rectify that. And the Ozzie lad they did play on the day looks pretty handy anyway. I have to say I love watching the Baby Blacks ruck. Just so quick and powerful. We're lightyears off it up here, absolutely lightyears.

I assume Michael Hooper was Australia's 7 that game -he's another good young player, who will be competing with Colby Faingaa for the Brumbies 7 Jersey this season.

The Baby Blacks always seem to be so far ahead of other teams at the breakdown - I can only assume that it has to do with the coaching (rather than them being superior athletes...). The speed of recycling the ball to backs can be phenomenal at times, meaning the backs have so much time.

I knew Barrett was mainly regarded as a 10, didn't know he was already that close to Super Rugby - because I thought most of your U20s normally take a year or to break through? Which makes the last point all the more bizarre, it's not like most of the Baby Blacks are needed for domestic rugby, you'd have thought getting them together for a few games could only be good for their development. Maybe its a financial issue?

That is usually the case, but there have been a unusually high number of the Under 20's that have secured themselves Super Rugby contracts this season (9 in total, compared to 2-3 usually). Some of these wont get much (if any) Super Rugby this season though, but the 10's (Sopoaga, Anscombe, Barrett) should get plenty of game-time as we have seen a lot of top 10's leave since last season (Delany, Brett, McAlister, Berquist, Donald).

I can only assume the reason we don't play Australia more at Under 20 level is a financial issue, as you suggest.

 

[Peat]

Lovely score from Yarde, http://www.rfu.com/rbssixnations/Live Streaming.aspx for those interested

 

[big ginger 8]

Just wondering how likely is Cane to start for the Chiefs his year?

 

[Peat]

And another. And one for Clifford. This one's beginning to look ugly...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Stream won't work for me for some reason =/



Tell a lie, it's up now. Poor quality though.

 

[Saintjay]

What's the score in the England games?

 

[Darwin]

Just wondering how likely is Cane to start for the Chiefs his year?

He will certainly get some starts for the Chiefs this season, though is probably still ranked behind Scott Waldrom at this stage. Waldrom was arguably the form the form openside flanker in NZ last season - he is very injury prone though, so Cane will get plenty of chances when Waldrom is injured/rested. Latimer is the other option at 7, but Cane is already ahead of him in terms of openside options (Latimer can do a good job at 6 though).

 

[big ginger 8]

He will certainly get some starts for the Chiefs this season, though is probably still ranked behind Scott Waldrom at this stage. Waldrom was arguably the form the form openside flanker in NZ last season - he is very injury prone though, so Cane will get plenty of chances when Waldrom is injured/rested. Latimer is the other option at 7, but Cane is already ahead of him in terms of openside options (Latimer can do a good job at 6 though).

Thanks trying to sort my fantasy team.

 

[Peat]

What's the score in the England games?

31-3. Three for Yarde, one for Clifford, and one very harsh penalty try.