England Six Nations Squad 2025

[Which Tyler]

I don't think it is …

I think @higgik was trying to say that Borthwick isn't naturally inclined to pick flair players and would prefer honest yeoman types in his own image.

I don't necessarily think that's true. I think his instincts are conservative but he has shown he is willing to be convinced by players. Earl is a good example. He was picked at 8 in an emergency situation, did well and hasn't really looked back. If he was wedded to up the jumper rugby, he could have swapped Earl back out at the earliest opportunity but he didn't.

Had he said that, I would have "agreed to disagree"

Picking three of our best players has nothing to do with 'marketing' …

Which is what he did say, and I have to assume is a parody of... something...

 

[Geordie]

Have Tizard and Tuima 'failed'? What was the test? Both have played for the A side and been fine without massively standing out, but neither was a disaster either.

Both are pretty young and while they're not demanding selection, I wouldn't write them off becoming decent test players. Also worth noting it's only Tuima's second season playing lock after switching from 8.

There was a lot of disruption with the generation of players in between the current incumbents and the U20s. Dean Ryan did his best to ruin our age grade sides and COVID didn't help either. In a couple of years' time, we may be in a position where the likes of Kpoku, Sodeke and Burrow are challenging to be in the squad with players like Tizard and Tuima maturing slightly later.

Well until now i would say yes Tizard has failed to make the jump up to international level that many had hoped for him. Maybe the expectation was too high? But the issue is ive seen nothing recently at club level that would suggest thats about to change either. Hes only 24 which is young still for lock, so I hope it does click for him. But even at Saracens he has a few huge units coming through, Sodike the one you mention is a giant and playing like a young Itoje. But add in Burrows, Kpoku, (maybe Lewis Chessum if he can get back on track) then suddenly hes facing a clutch of giants for his position.

Tuima again, he hasnt built on the huge promise of his first season. Now it wont help with Exeter being in a bit of turmoil / rebuilding so maybe im being a little more harsh on him saying its "failed". One to monitor i guess but i do hope he can push on again, a unit like him is invaluable at top level.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well until now i would say yes Tizard has failed to make the jump up to international level that many had hoped for him. Maybe the expectation was too high? But the issue is ive seen nothing recently at club level that would suggest thats about to change either. Hes only 24 which is young still for lock, so I hope it does click for him. But even at Saracens he has a few huge units coming through, Sodike the one you mention is a giant and playing like a young Itoje. But add in Burrows, Kpoku, (maybe Lewis Chessum if he can get back on track) then suddenly hes facing a clutch of giants for his position.

Tuima again, he hasnt built on the huge promise of his first season. Now it wont help with Exeter being in a bit of turmoil / rebuilding so maybe im being a little more harsh on him saying its "failed". One to monitor i guess but i do hope he can push on again, a unit like him is invaluable at top level.

Yeah, not really seeing it with either TBH but can always be persuaded by sheer weight of performance. One thing to have a good year or 18 months, quite another to perform over the longer term. Players progress at different rates, but they're the same age as Chessum and older than Martin. Suspect our next regular locks will come from the Sodike / Kpoku generation.

On the Chiefs thing it's easy to look good in a winning team. But the true mark of a player is to stand out when things aren't going so well. When the going gets tough and all that. Exhibit A Jac Morgan.

 

[BPM]

Do I think Tizard and Tuima are going to mainstays of the England team? No.

Have they 'failed' because they're not established internationals at 24? Also no.

Some players are slower to fully mature as @Vieux Talonneur said. I wouldn't totally write them off as failures when they could well be playing out of their skins at 26 or 28. I'm not saying they will be, just saying it's too soon to dismiss them.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tuima's only been playing lock for 1.5 seasons as well

 

[Geordie]

Freeman saying a switch to centre "is definitely on the cards" for England and that he already trains there, although not envisaging making a permanent switch just yet.

Yeah i read that.

Six Nations: Tommy Freeman ready for switch to centre

England wing Tommy Freeman says he is already preparing for a switch into midfield.

www.bbc.co.uk

Hes an excellent player. His skillset and size and power would look very good at 13. But hes really starting to come through nicely on the wing now, and influencing games. We have some other 13s like Beard coming through aswell.

Having said that moving Freeman frees up another space on the wing though..for IFW to return or Roebuck who i rate highly.

A good summer tour from the youngsters and suddenly SB will have some more selection headaches....only these ones are positive .....

 

[Geordie]

Do I think Tizard and Tuima are going to mainstays of the England team? No.

Have they 'failed' because they're not established internationals at 24? Also no.

Some players are slower to fully mature as @Vieux Talonneur said. I wouldn't totally write them off as failures when they could well be playing out of their skins at 26 or 28. I'm not saying they will be, just saying it's too soon to dismiss them.

Well Tizard has not been able to grasp a main squad place despite a lack of real top quality operators and indeed two of those (Coles and Chessum) out for a while and Martin out now. Flanker Ted Hill is the bench opton for lock...says it all.
And further more, whilst he may become a mainstay in the Saracens side that challenges for trophies again, i just cant see him making the grade internationally. So in terms of international representation as many hoped he would get, then i think hes failed.

Tuima well might be different, but hes going to have some major competition coming through very soon...so needs to put his marker down

 

[BPM]

Classing a 24 year old tight five player regularly starting for their club as a 'failure' is just a funny take. Tizard might not have lived up to the potential he showed at Quins but that doesn't automatically make him a no hoper.

Let's see how the much vaunted younger crop do as they come through. Kpoku is a case apart given his exploits in France, but typically U20s looking good against their peers isn't the best indication of how they'll do at senior level. Part of the reason you need quite a few players in development is because a fairly high percentage won't become truly elite. Even more so for tight five players.

 

[Geordie]

Classing a 24 year old tight five player regularly starting for their club as a 'failure' is just a funny take. Tizard might not have lived up to the potential he showed at Quins but that doesn't automatically make him a no hoper.

Let's see how the much vaunted younger crop do as they come through. Kpoku is a case apart given his exploits in France, but typically U20s looking good against their peers isn't the best indication of how they'll do at senior level. Part of the reason you need quite a few players in development is because a fairly high percentage won't become truly elite. Even more so for tight five players.

i fully appreciate that, in fact thats one of the things i bemoan most, the % of players who actually progress from U20 to becoming inked in for club then actually making a Cap for the first team. It must be very low.

I also do understand that players come through at different ages etc and from different routes.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

Torygraph reporting Roebuck to start, possibly for Sleightholme but maybe to shift Freeman in

 

[IT157]

Roebuck is starting.

And freeman will be playing centre.

M Smith back at fullback.

Wales vs England: Marcus Smith returns and Tommy Freeman starts at outside centre for visitors

Marcus Smith returns to England's starting XV at full-back and Tommy Freeman moves to outside centre for their Six Nations finale in Wales.

www.bbc.com

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Get the feeling Ford is going to say he is retiring from international rugby and he is back on the bench as a goodbye.

Of course through if both Smith's end up on the Lions then the summer tour really will test the depth.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Supposedly it's been confirmed that BJvR is locked to South Africa, so that's some good news at least

 

[TW27BA]

Daly seemed to be pretty useful moving to 13, so I'd be happy to see the same 15 after Lawrence was unfortuntely injured with Marcus at 15. If not start Freddie and bring on MS later on.
Maybe give Tom a break and start Ben. I'd love to see Roebuck get a run out but feel SB is too conservative to try anything new. He's still basking in a decent England performance.
Watch Wales have the game of the tournament and spoil SB's weekend. It's the only one that really matters isn't it?
If England play as they did Sunday, that won't be happening.

I eat my words after the team was announced today.
Still seems unbalanced. Why not Daly at 13, Roebuck on the wing and Freeman to 15. Keep Marcus for the finishers.
No cover at lock? and Willis on the bench whilst still flogging Tom? 3 10's in the 23?
If it comes off SB will get praised, but it could just as easily turn out badly.

 

[higgik]

I don't think it is …

I think @higgik was trying to say that Borthwick isn't naturally inclined to pick flair players and would prefer honest yeoman types in his own image.

I don't necessarily think that's true. I think his instincts are conservative but he has shown he is willing to be convinced by players. Earl is a good example. He was picked at 8 in an emergency situation, did well and hasn't really looked back. If he was wedded to up the jumper rugby, he could have swapped Earl back out at the earliest opportunity but he didn't.

Picking three of our best players has nothing to do with 'marketing' …

Exactly, there is a difference between the team SB wants to pick and the players he has.
He is not one for looking at the squad and working on a plan.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just read that SB sees F Smith as a genuine 10-12 option 'over time'.

Whether that timescale is as short as this weekend remains to be seen. It was only this morning that Freeman said he didn't see a switch to centre 'right now'….who knows if he already knew when he gave the interview.

 

[Which Tyler]

Exactly, there is a difference between the team SB wants to pick and the players he has.
He is not one for looking at the squad and working on a plan.

Which is absolutely fair, but not remotely reflected by the words you'd used.

 

[higgik]

Which is absolutely fair, but not remotely reflected by the words you'd used.

Well, for years the England Football team was picked by marketing guys wanting certain players for their advertising and I do think there is some pressure to play players that do not suit the SB way, just because they bring in the cash.
I am not saying they don't deserve to play, but there is conflict between the coach's game plan and the needs of the marketing guys and this is causing major comprimises in the gameplay.

 

[Saintjay]

Well, for years the England Football team was picked by marketing guys wanting certain players for their advertising and I do think there is some pressure to play players that do not suit the SB way, just because they bring in the cash.
I am not saying they don't deserve to play, but there is conflict between the coach's game plan and the needs of the marketing guys and this is causing major comprimises in the gameplay.

Who are the players that SB doesn't want but the marketing guys do?

 

[LardFingers]

Who are the players that SB doesn't want but the marketing guys do?

Marcus Smith for starters.