England Six Nations Squad 2025

[Saintjay]

Would you start Dingwall and Slade v Wales.

It could be it. I just wonder how SB feels about Slade. He dropped him then suddenly hes undroppable, then dropped again now.

I wonder if SB will go with Dingwall and Daly. Very lightweight though.

I'm going to go with Dingwall and Slade. I'd prefer Daly as he's played better than Slade.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

This may be a little harsh but sounds like he is really learning on the job.

Not harsh at all, that's exactly what's happening. He was under qualified for the job, but he's got it and unless things get catastrophic he will now have it for a while, so our best hope is that he IS learning and on the grounds that the best learnings come from what doesn't go so well he's got a bit to work with. Maybe as time goes on he'll also get the confidence to surround himself with a top class coaching team.

If one of those marginal games v NZ had gone our way - as at least one should - then we'd have beaten 3 of the top 4 in the world over the course of a year which not many do and I'd guess we haven't done for a very long time.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Slade's a classic case of player and game plan needing to match.

He's not a bosher or the fastest thing on 2 legs. But put him in space and I'd back him to draw opponents and deliver a well timed and accurate pass more often than the other options. It's actually probably the defence that's done for him more than anything else.

 

[Which Tyler]

Dingwall-Beard was good for the A side... Surely that's the whole point of that setup?

Worth noting that we've been explicitly told that that's not remotely the point of that setup.

Even if it were, then Dingwall-Ojomoh and Butt-Ojomoh were also good for the A-side.

Generally though, I agree with Dingwall-Beard, given the limitations of who's in the wider squad, and how long they've been there.
It won't be though, it'll be 2 of Slade, Dingwall, Daly.
TBH, any 2 of those 3 will be good enough against Wales, without being good enough for England going forwards.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Worth noting that we've been explicitly told that that's not remotely the point of that setup.

Even if it were, then Dingwall-Ojomoh and Butt-Ojomoh were also good for the A-side.

Generally though, I agree with Dingwall-Beard, given the limitations of who's in the wider squad, and how long they've been there.
It won't be though, it'll be 2 of Slade, Dingwall, Daly.
TBH, any 2 of those 3 will be good enough against Wales, without being good enough for England going forwards.

Yeah, but they've also said previously that is serves as a transition side and then picked a 26 year old OHC. I don't really take what they tell us on any given day as the truth at this tage

 

[Makeshift10]

The guy who started the comp with 3 open sides?

The guy who's picked our youngest 10 over 2 much more experienced options?

The guy who changed the position of our most creative player and then dropped him?

The guy who's started 3 different full backs in 4 games?

The guy who covered lock with a flanker who barely plays there?

The guy who picked Chessum without getting him to prove fitness?

The guy who's totally loaded our backs from one club?

I'm not saying many of those were great decisions or even that SB has a clear plan, but I don't think we can accuse him of being conservative and not trying things.

Agreed. For all his faults, the idea that Borthwick is a conservative selector can only be based on the perception of Borthwick, not the reality. The shift in personnel and age profile of the squad since the last world cup is significant. And several of those changes have ignored much safer options.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Agreed. For all his faults, the idea that Borthwick is a conservative selector can only be based on the perception of Borthwick, not the reality. The shift in personnel and age profile of the squad since the last world cup is significant. And several of those changes have ignored much safer options.

Yeah he's not a conservative selector, he is a conservative tactician though and a very disjointed selector.

He seems to look at every aspect in isolation. The selection of any specific player in any position seems to have no link to the selection of any other players, all of which seem to have to link to the tactics we wish to employ.

Couple that with the lack of continuity and general poor quality of the support coaching staff and it just looks like all levels if English management are bumbling around blindly hoping for the best on any given day.

Even now I still can't work out what Borthwick is actually trying to work towards as a team identity other than a team that will look to top the stats for most kicks.

 

[Becca]

Ford's was just shy of 9 months

Mine never healed despite intensive physio for seven months
Really sorry to see him suffering that injury.

 

[Saintjay]

Duty rumour from the Rugby Pod so massive pinch of salt. Players had meeting with Wiggie and Borthwick and stated they didn't want to be booed by the fans and wanted to play a bit. So the players were given more imput into the game plan.

 

[Which Tyler]

If it's been a chronic issue for him that he's been managing - it might be better for him to have snapped it - a fair few surgeons seem to think that it's one of the few examples where repair is better than rehab.
I've even known one who deliberately challenged his to snap, in order to get it surgically repaired!

 

[BrokenWing]

Duty rumour from the Rugby Pod so massive pinch of salt. Players had meeting with Wiggie and Borthwick and stated they didn't want to be booed by the fans and wanted to play a bit. So the players were given more imput into the game plan.

So the opposite to what Jamie George previously said.

Was it a cunning plan, as cunning as a fox that's just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford university to say that the coaches were telling them to play a bit more? Because they can hardly then go in on the players for doing what they've been "coached" without admitting they're coaching the particularly bland style that has been apparent.

Probably not.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Duty rumour from the Rugby Pod so massive pinch of salt. Players had meeting with Wiggie and Borthwick and stated they didn't want to be booed by the fans and wanted to play a bit. So the players were given more imput into the game plan.

I imagine this was Borthwicks response

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

I imagine this was Borthwicks response
View attachment 23027

He was never a Lion though?

 

[Grizwald]

Duty rumour from the Rugby Pod so massive pinch of salt. Players had meeting with Wiggie and Borthwick and stated they didn't want to be booed by the fans and wanted to play a bit. So the players were given more imput into the game plan.

I picked up on that too. Borthwick isn't a front man, I'd listen to almost anyone if they're talking anything rugby related. He'll have forgotten more about Rugby than I'll ever know but I find myself turning off the radio/TV when he comes on. You can usually guess what he's going to say it's so scripted. It's not him per se, his backroom staff in the main are super green. My own working theory is he's unsure about his own coaching ability hence why he's surrounded himself with with inexperienced assistant coaches.

Things I don't get still are after 2 years of the Borthwick era he doesn't know how he wants to play and adjusts to the competition in the main, there's a need for some horses for courses but the best play the way they play regardless of the oppo.

It appears he doesn't know his best side with some concessions for injuries. Lawrence 12, Slade 13 back and forth. FB chopping and changing, M Smith chopping and chaging 10, FB, bench. Want a play making FB while your first choice is injured? Pick one of the qualified premiership players e.g. Ben Carpenter. The Scotland game is still burnt deep into my psyche. Mitchell's box kicks then getting Harry Randall on to do the same.

Anyhow I think there is a good team in there but still way off France and Ireland. It felt like there was some progression after the NZ tour. I had to go back and remind myself of the XV's for those two tests. The notable absences in the 6N Furbank only played the first test then injured, Waboso, Spencer on the Bench. Tom Curry has been a big net gain since that tour, he's been immense. CCS started at 6 both games, Martin also both games at Lock with Itoje.

 

[higgik]

Yeah he's not a conservative selector, he is a conservative tactician though and a very disjointed selector.

He seems to look at every aspect in isolation. The selection of any specific player in any position seems to have no link to the selection of any other players, all of which seem to have to link to the tactics we wish to employ.

Couple that with the lack of continuity and general poor quality of the support coaching staff and it just looks like all levels if English management are bumbling around blindly hoping for the best on any given day.

Even now I still can't work out what Borthwick is actually trying to work towards as a team identity other than a team that will look to top the stats for most kicks.

So true.
He has always played the pressure game, but has been forced by RFU marketing to have Itoje, Smith, Earl in the squad to prop up advertising revenue.
If he had full control of squad, it would have a few different faces in it.

 

[BPM]

He is which is far from ideal...but i keep saying his hands are tied a little as we just dont have some of the player types required at this level.

We dont have a juggernaut/direct 12.
We had no real tight head locks...they're "developing' Martin on the job. We have no other with him out. Tuima failing, Tizard failing, etc etc
After the 3/4 locks then the standard of the rest of the locks pretty much falls off a cliff. And Coles and Chessum have been injured for so long
We have no 1st choice FB
Marcus Smith IS a dilema. He is also hindered by not having a juggernaut 12 alongside him...
Our props were ineffective, but are slowly being worked on and showing big improvements. Stuart looking good now.
Our back up props were poor
Our wings were young and inexperienced...but now showing green shoots...especially Freeman. IFW out has not helped.
Etc etc

SB has many faults...but i just think his hands have been tied in some regards with this.

Have Tizard and Tuima 'failed'? What was the test? Both have played for the A side and been fine without massively standing out, but neither was a disaster either.

Both are pretty young and while they're not demanding selection, I wouldn't write them off becoming decent test players. Also worth noting it's only Tuima's second season playing lock after switching from 8.

There was a lot of disruption with the generation of players in between the current incumbents and the U20s. Dean Ryan did his best to ruin our age grade sides and COVID didn't help either. In a couple of years' time, we may be in a position where the likes of Kpoku, Sodeke and Burrow are challenging to be in the squad with players like Tizard and Tuima maturing slightly later.

 

[Saintjay]

So true.
He has always played the pressure game, but has been forced by RFU marketing to have Itoje, Smith, Earl in the squad to prop up advertising revenue.
If he had full control of squad, it would have a few different faces in it.

At least two of those names are quite likely to be Lions. Less to do with the marketing team more to do with being bloody good at rugby.

 

[Which Tyler]

So true.
He has always played the pressure game, but has been forced by RFU marketing to have Itoje, Smith, Earl in the squad to prop up advertising revenue.
If he had full control of squad, it would have a few different faces in it.

I assume this is parody.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Freeman saying a switch to centre "is definitely on the cards" for England and that he already trains there, although not envisaging making a permanent switch just yet.

 

[BPM]

I assume this is parody.

I don't think it is …

I think @higgik was trying to say that Borthwick isn't naturally inclined to pick flair players and would prefer honest yeoman types in his own image.

I don't necessarily think that's true. I think his instincts are conservative but he has shown he is willing to be convinced by players. Earl is a good example. He was picked at 8 in an emergency situation, did well and hasn't really looked back. If he was wedded to up the jumper rugby, he could have swapped Earl back out at the earliest opportunity but he didn't.

Picking three of our best players has nothing to do with 'marketing' …