England Six Nations Squad 2025

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I mean Dan Kelly (2021-2023) and Seb Atkinson both had stand out years at 12 and didn't get any look in

I'd love to know what stat SB is looking g at to see why they didn't get a look in. Is there any good stat sites that have that data we can look at?

edit: found some good stats on rugby pass but don't know who to compare them to as there's no Inside centre SB does like.

 

[BPM]

Well BJVR is the comparison I guess …

Either way, that stats are always going to differ depending on how teams play. Stats for a centre being primarily used as a crash ball option are going to look very different to one whose being used as a distributor.

Ultimately, I don't think there's any value in the exercise anyway given that our current 12 is playing club rugby at 10 or 13.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Well BJVR is the comparison I guess …

Either way, that stats are always going to differ depending on how teams play. Stats for a centre being primarily used as a crash ball option are going to look very different to one whose being used as a distributor.

Ultimately, I don't think there's any value in the exercise anyway given that our current 12 is playing club rugby at 10 or 13.

Agree….but had a look anyway and compared to other 12s he doesn't look at good or doesn't get much ball.

Either way from my 5 minutes of looking at stats I wouldn't select him if that was all the data.

Although stats don't lie, so maybe the way he was used by tigers has cost him an England shirt?

 

[Which Tyler]

Well BJVR is the comparison I guess …

Either way, that stats are always going to differ depending on how teams play. Stats for a centre being primarily used as a crash ball option are going to look very different to one whose being used as a distributor.

Ultimately, I don't think there's any value in the exercise anyway given that our current 12 is playing club rugby at 10 or 13.

That, and that Spreadsheet Botherer won't be look at the type of stats available to us plebs.
We get "metres carried" he gets that broken down by field position, whether from kick, pass or loose ball, metres made before contact with a defender, metres made after contact with defender, how many defenders, whether they tackled high or low, how many seconds those metres accounted for...

 

[Geordie]

Well BJVR is the comparison I guess …

Either way, that stats are always going to differ depending on how teams play. Stats for a centre being primarily used as a crash ball option are going to look very different to one whose being used as a distributor.

Ultimately, I don't think there's any value in the exercise anyway given that our current 12 is playing club rugby at 10 or 13.

Do we behave a crash ball option?

 

[BPM]

No. Not really. Will Butt is probably the closest we have.

My point was simply that comparing stats across a selection of players wearing 12 isn't that useful when you consider they could be used in entirely different ways.

Atkinson has a really good all round game and if I had to categorise him, I'd probably put him down as 'distributor' of sorts but I can see why he might not look that good statistically - he probably doesn't have particularly high metres made stats or loads of passing stats. For the most part, I see him being a great facilitator for his 10. He either takes the ball to the line as a first receiver allowing the 10 to play a wrap around (Ireland style) or runs really well timed decoy lines that manipulate the defence. A lot of small actions that create space but aren't easy to capture with a metric. Dingwall is similar in this respect. What they do is essential to how their teams play but hard to quantify easily.

Kelly's biggest problem was injuries at the wrong time. He might well have had 10-15 caps had his injuries not directly followed his best run of form.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's just so baffling as it's not even a recent thing. I think the last 12 we had at 12 was 12trees (come on, the guy even had 12 in his name) or Barrett.

 

[BPM]

It is. Why is it that players don't seem to be targeting that shirt? If I were a youngster coming through with the right skillset, I would be actively petitioning to play 12 in the knowledge that it would give me the path of least resistance to an England jersey.

Perhaps they are, but in all these years, you'd think there would be more obvious examples.

For example, Sam Simmonds could have been a good 12 IMO. When he wasn't hanging around the back of a maul, he seemed to spend the rest of his time in the centres anyway.

 

[BrokenWing]

It is. Why is it that players don't seem to be targeting that shirt? If I were a youngster coming through with the right skillset, I would be actively petitioning to play 12 in the knowledge that it would give me the path of least resistance to an England jersey.

Perhaps they are, but in all these years, you'd think there would be more obvious examples.

For example, Sam Simmonds could have been a good 12 IMO. When he wasn't hanging around the back of a maul, he seemed to spend the rest of his time in the centres anyway.

It takes time between identifying the positional shortfall and bringing through the players to address it.

Hence why a few years ago there were issues in the back row, and now we have an abundance, but no 12. Your Sam Simmons reference being a fair example of this.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's just so baffling as it's not even a recent thing. I think the last 12 we had at 12 was 12trees (come on, the guy even had 12 in his name) or Barrett.

I was about to mention Te'o, who I'd say was a legitimate 12. But had a quick look back and apparently he only actually started 6 games there for us. I thought he'd gotten way more appearances in that shirt.

 

[Geordie]

What is everyone looking for in their 12 and 13s?

The current trend seems to be a big powerhouse 12 and a creative 13 leading the defence and possibly game management.

Are you looking for the same?

As I don't see Lawrence as either of those (maybe a mix) and Slade just isn't selling it for me but has the game management...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why is it that players don't seem to be targeting that shirt? If I were a youngster coming through with the right skillset, I would be actively petitioning to play 12 in the knowledge that it would give me the path of least resistance to an England jersey.

I mean we've got a number of 12s now, and we had a bunch before that ended up going elsewhere due to lack of interest from England - I blame the England coaches as much as anyone tbh

 

[Which Tyler]

It's just so baffling as it's not even a recent thing. I think the last 12 we had at 12 was 12trees (come on, the guy even had 12 in his name) or Barrett.

It's also worth noting (again) that we have produced 12s in that time - they just chose to represent other nations (or were left undeveloped), in part at least, because they saw the England 12 shirt occupied by Captain Iceman, and no way to challenge for it.

 

[BrokenWing]

I think it's one of those questions that if you ask 10 different people, you'll get 10 different answers.

Ideally a powerhouse and distributor, but specifically that can generate go forward from static ball so if the 10 needs to, they can give it to the 12 and at least not end up going backwards. Also helps to hold defenses to give the option to attack the outside channels.

 

[BrokenWing]

It's also worth noting (again) that we have produced 12s in that time - they just chose to represent other nations, in part at least, because they saw the England 12 shirt occupied by Captain Iceman, and no way to challenge for it.

I was more annoyed by them being given a chance, but then getting hooked so he could move out one.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

It's also worth noting (again) that we have produced 12s in that time - they just chose to represent other nations, in part at least, because they saw the England 12 shirt occupied by Captain Iceman, and no way to challenge for it.

I was more annoyed by them being given a chance, but then getting hooked so he could move out one.

That ***** has at least 50 more caps than he ever deserved.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

What is everyone looking for in their 12 and 13s?

The current trend seems to be a big powerhouse 12 and a creative 13 leading the defence and possibly game management.

Are you looking for the same?

As I don't see Lawrence as either of those (maybe a mix) and Slade just isn't selling it for me but has the game management...

I think the current trend will take awhile to replace. Definitely not until a creative player who is at least dominant defensively comes around to change the trend.

A traditional 2nd 5/8th is too exposable by too many international teams these days, South Africa, Ireland, New Zealand, even Italy and more have midfields that would expose any 10/12 axis with a slighter 12. Farrell is probably the last 2nd 5/8th we'll see for awhile and I can't see him going as well in that position had he been regularly playing opposite players like Aki and De Allende have become in the past 3 or 4 years.

It'll come around again though, basically every international team were playing a creative centre paired with an extra flanker type player 15-20 years ago before England's pivot was very successful from 2016- 2019 and Ireland had success, primarily, with two ball playing centres in the same period.

The next 12s who change the game will have to either be better athletes than Farrell or better ball players than Henshaw, both will come.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Anthony Allen was for years the form 12 in the league by miles

It was criminal how ignored he was

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It takes time between identifying the positional shortfall and bringing through the players to address it

It's about 22 years and counting…..

Seriously though, coaching staff will be privy to a lot more data and intel than we are. So when we go up in arms about a particular player not being picked - Dan Kelly mentioned here - there's actually probably a good reason for it. It's just that we don't know it. Ted Hill was another regularly deemed 'unlucky' until we saw how badly his stats compared to his rivals.

Which absolutely isn't to say that various coaching set ups haven't made more than their share of mistakes.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Anthony Allen was for years the form 12 in the league by miles

It was criminal how ignored he was

Another stuffed by being capped too early?