England Six Nations Squad 2025

[Vieux Talonneur]

The problem is the fact that he can't be effective for longer than 50-55mins. It's very normal for front rows to come off at that point in a game, but it's more problematic when your skipper is one of them.

The subbing has become unthinking practice everywhere. There's no reason why front rowers, especially hookers, can't go much longer and George until relatively recently did. In his case the bigger issue's probably a combination of Father Time and a trend for hookers generally becoming more dynamic.

But yes, being on the pitch helps! Read that Itoje has failed to go the distance only twice for England which is an incredible stat.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The smart choice IMO is to use George's leadership skills in the last 30. He might not be an impact sub in the traditional respect, but he could absolutely be an asset in preventing our all too frequent final quarter collapse.

Let's say it's a tight game vs. Ireland, France or Scotland and a late clutch throw might be the difference maker in winning or losing. I'd much rather George is taking it than Dan.

Very true, although Borthwick has long identified Dan as the next in line so either has to back him or change tack.

Even if LCD is the form guy, George has been named as a VC, so I'd expect him to at least start the 6N in the 2 shirt.

 

[BPM]

I'm not sure. I think there's a fairly decent chance LCD starts and George comes on later.

It's most definitely what I'd be doing vs. Ireland, France and Scotland.

Itoje usually goes the full 80 but it's clear to me that we need the most leadership in the final quarter. I look at it a bit like what NZ did with Coles and Mealamu.

 

[Jimbo]

OK, but let's be fair here. Farrell was always going to be retained for the RWC.

George was a good choice to take the role on a short term basis - age always meant that it would be a short-ish run. Arguably, we could have gone straight to Itoje, but I don't really think Borthwick's done anything badly wrong here.


Not sure I agree with with this at all. He's had a great career and is very well respected. He's also good at talking to refs in a way Owen never could.

The problem is the fact that he can't be effective for longer than 50-55mins. It's very normal for front rows to come off at that point in a game, but it's more problematic when your skipper is one of them.

This is the key point for me. England have been a better side when he's on the pitch. We fade later on in games where his leadership is needed.

The smart choice IMO is to use George's leadership skills in the last 30. He might not be an impact sub in the traditional respect, but he could absolutely be an asset in preventing our all too frequent final quarter collapse.

Let's say it's a tight game vs. Ireland, France or Scotland and a late clutch throw might be the difference maker in winning or losing. I'd much rather George is taking it than Dan.

On a similar page to you, not sure about the traditional sense point though, England have massively struggled in the last quarter, there has long been talk of bringing on a 10 at 55 - 60 minutes to control a game if the score bored permits it rather than the fast loose flashy stuff, with the hooker being so pivotal to the set piece does it not make more sense to bring on that reliability and steady the ship from the hooker in a similar vein.

 

[Geordie]

With regards to the last 15 drop off....Is it all the leadership though? Or are the England tactics, blitz defence etc etc sapping the players energy. Its not like they're less fit than any other international team so something is amiss.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm not sure. I think there's a fairly decent chance LCD starts and George comes on later.

It's most definitely what I'd be doing vs. Ireland, France and Scotland.

Itoje usually goes the full 80 but it's clear to me that we need the most leadership in the final quarter. I look at it a bit like what NZ did with Coles and Mealamu.

Yeah, it's difficult. The last quarter point is very true. although you never know whether you'll need to chase a game or close it down. Dan's more likely to make a killer break and also to miss a key line out, although I don't think George's darts are quite where they were and the memory of the complete howler on the attacking line out in the semi still runs deep.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or are the England tactics, blitz defence etc etc sapping the players energy.

If you believe Borthwick's bullshit then yeah, the players are all **** and lazy and fat
However multiple clubs in the prem run a blitz and the players are fit enough for that (and Europe) - so it's almost like.....he's making excuses for poor coaching and tactical decisions

Dan's more likely to make a killer break and also to miss a key line out, although I don't think George's darts are quite where they were and the memory of the complete howler on the attacking line out in the semi still runs deep.

Dan's defence is what worries me, he makes some absolute howler reads and attempted tackles, the kind of things that would make a minis rugby coach tear his hair out

 

[Geordie]

If you believe Borthwick's bullshit then yeah, the players are all **** and lazy and fat
However multiple clubs in the prem run a blitz and the players are fit enough for that (and Europe) - so it's almost like.....he's making excuses for poor coaching and tactical decisions


Dan's defence is what worries me, he makes some absolute howler reads and attempted tackles, the kind of things that would make a minis rugby coach tear his hair out

I didnt say only the blitz...i said all the tactics...

As i said...our players are no less fit than the rest of the international teams so something is causing the drop off and i dont believe its just leadership.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I listened to the good the bad the rugby with Furbank (only because Furbank was on it) and when talking about England, he said that the tactics had been identified as wrong where they had looked to shut up shop too early rather than continue playing in a way where they got to be leading in the first place.

So guessing its tactics and not players fitness BS.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Dan's defence is what worries me, he makes some absolute howler reads and attempted tackles, the kind of things that would make a minis rugby coach tear his hair out

Agreed.

But rightly or wrongly SB's chosen his man and given him a central contract. He either needs to back him, as he has so far, or change direction which is unlikely this early into a contract.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Langdon ****** all over anything Dan brings.

He's got great darts, smashes rucks and tackles hard. He also is brilliant on the loose and offer a brilliant running threat. The question would be, is he big enough for international rugby but he deserves a shot over a hooker who can't throw in.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Langdon ****** all over anything Dan brings.

He's got great darts, smashes rucks and tackles hard. He also is brilliant on the lose and offer a brilliant running threat. The question would be, is he big enough for international rugby but he deserves a shot over a hooker who can't throw in.

Well if you believe Wiki he's taller and heavier than Dan and only 4kg lighter than George / LCD.

Don't disagree at all, but SB's made his choice and at least gets credit for continuity, even if we think he's wrong.

 

[Saintjay]

I listened to the good the bad the rugby with Furbank (only because Furbank was on it) and when talking about England, he said that the tactics had been identified as wrong where they had looked to shut up shop too early rather than continue playing in a way where they got to be leading in the first place.

So guessing its tactics and not players fitness BS.

It wouldn't have taken a tactical genius to identify that England have a leaking defence, there was a clear lack of leadership in the last twenty. That since the summer England have problems holding a lead and kicking on in the game.

It seems mad that we persevered with it when the issues were clear. That we are now only changing tactics/defence etc seems poor. Fingers crossed it works. Carrying on with a 50% win ratio isn't going to cut it.

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

Yeah, it's difficult. The last quarter point is very true. although you never know whether you'll need to chase a game or close it down. Dan's more likely to make a killer break and also to miss a key line out, although I don't think George's darts are quite where they were and the memory of the complete howler on the attacking line out in the semi still runs deep.

I really don't know about Dan, feel like SB could bring someone else into that 3rd hooker spot.


Edit: completely forgot he got given a central contract, how on earth has that happened

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I really don't know about Dan, feel like SB could bring someone else into that 3rd hooker spot.

Don't know, but central contracts will come into play as there will be pressure on SB to use the contracted players. If a player slips down the pecking order and the RFU want to terminate presumably there'd be a cost in doing so and we don't know how long each player's central contract is for - as a younger player and heir apparent its possible that Dan's contract might be one of the longer ones. Conversely with George on age grounds.

SB's made his bed and now has to lie in it.

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

Don't know, but central contracts will come into play as there will be pressure on SB to use the contracted players. If a player slips down the pecking order and the RFU want to terminate presumably there'd be a cost in doing so and we don't know how long each player's central contract is for - as a younger player and heir apparent its possible that Dan's contract might be one of the longer ones. Conversely with George on age grounds.

SB's made his bed and now has to lie in it.

Yeah I completely forgot Dan was centrally contracted, idk why he has been. Three hookers centrally contracted seems a bit much to be honest, like you are saying it sort of means that they cant really pick anyone else. With George, LCD at the twilight of there careers and Dan not really excelling it seems a bit stupid to have given all three a central contract. Just my two pennies worth.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah I completely forgot Dan was centrally contracted, idk why he has been. Three hookers centrally contracted seems a bit much to be honest, like you are saying it sort of means that they cant really pick anyone else. With George, LCD at the twilight of there careers and Dan not really excelling it seems a bit stupid to have given all three a central contract. Just my two pennies worth.

LCD isn't contracted, just Dan and George, which is an additional complication on current form.

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

LCD isn't contracted, just Dan and George, which is an additional complication on current form.

Terrible from me, If I am honest I cant remember everyone who has been given a central contract, just let the players play in whatever league they want is what I say.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

I would question the theory that England lost those games because they lacked leadership in the last quarter. I would submit that the reason England lost a lot of those games, particularly the autumn internationals, was because they weren't very good for the whole 80 minutes. Take the November game against Newzealand. I think England were lucky to be in that game coming into the last quarter. They scored a fortunate try to get themselves back in the game.
Against Australia their defence was leaky the whole game not just in the last 20 minutes.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I would question the theory that England lost those games because they lacked leadership in the last quarter. I would submit that the reason England lost a lot of those games, particularly the autumn internationals, was because they weren't very good for the whole 80 minutes. Take the November game against Newzealand. I think England were lucky to be in that game coming into the last quarter. They scored a fortunate try to get themselves back in the game.
Against Australia their defence was leaky the whole game not just in the last 20 minutes.

Leadership's definitely a part of it, but you're right there are other factors at play, bench impact, unnecessary substitutions, individual errors etc.

Leadership also goes way beyond the captain and George had precious little support from senior lieutenants.