England Rugby 2019/20 Thread

[FLOBALOB]

Aye it was ewers and Armand that were hard done by imo, but even with ewers, while I would've picked him every time, I can see why Eddie didn't as he's not the type of flanker Eddie has ever picked (and he did make a training camp or two so EJ got a good look)

Aye it was ewers and Armand that were hard done by imo, but even with ewers, while I would've picked him every time, I can see why Eddie didn't as he's not the type of flanker Eddie has ever picked (and he did make a training camp or two so EJ got a good look)

I'd imagine if Ewers was ever going to be picked it would be @ 8 as a direct replacement for BV.

 

[Scotty]

I'd imagine if Ewers was ever going to be picked it would be @ 8 as a direct replacement for BV.

Pick Ewers at 8 and Simmonds 6 haha. always wondered why chiefs dont switch them for defensive scrums...Ewers is stronger and more powerful and simmonds is quick off the base....

 

[BPM]

To play devil's advocate, Simmonds does play behind the most dominant pack in Europe in the team with the most regimented play style in Europe. He essentially just has to go through the phases. I can see why EJ may not back him yet.

I'd definitely have him in though.

Same here.

It's equally easy to play Devil's advocate on Umaga though and say that he is massively helped by having Gopperth as a second set of eyes and goal kicker. I can't help feeling that he is able to play the way he does because he's not under the same level of individual pressure,

I think he's a talented player, but definitely not more so than Simmonds. Steering your team to win the biggest prize in European rugby is the biggest achievement outside of test rugby and that has to count for something.

As a Quins fan, I have to give a shout out to Marcus Smith ... he has neither the benefit of a dominant pack or an experienced campaigner guiding him from 12 and kicking goals and is almost always individually good.

 

[BPM]

I'd imagine if Ewers was ever going to be picked it would be @ 8 as a direct replacement for BV.

Except he's just not that great. I'm not even sure I've ever seen him pass? He's great at running in to people and being physical at the breakdown, but you need a lot more than that at test level.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Umaga has nowhere near the game control that Simmonds has
I've never seen Simmonds **** the bed in the way that Umaga does when it's not going his way, as well.
Umaga does more highlights reel stuff, which is why BT are so hot on him

 

[FLOBALOB]

Except he's just not that great. I'm not even sure I've ever seen him pass? He's great at running in to people and being physical at the breakdown, but you need a lot more than that at test level.

BUT if ever he did play for England i think it would be as direct replacement for BV.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think that's what I was calling for at the time - replacement 8

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Except he's just not that great. I'm not even sure I've ever seen him pass? He's great at running in to people and being physical at the breakdown, but you need a lot more than that at test level.

In fairness have you ever really seen any of the Exeter forwards pass? Game plan is clearly for them to go Route 1 every time they get the ball. I also do recall a few decent offloads he's put in in the past.

I wouldn't have him anywhere near the side now but there were definitely times in the past when he deserved some caps.

 

[BPM]

Fair point. Maybe he has a bit more in his locker than the game plan allows him to show, but on the basis of the available evidence I have, I don't think Ewers has the skill set of an test number 8.

Although it is fair to say at one point in the Lancaster era, I would have been happy enough to see him get a run.

Armand was far more unfortunate IMO. It it felt like his peak coincided with a time where our back row options were not that great and he really should have got more of a look in.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Fair point. Maybe he has a bit more in his locker than the game plan allows him to show, but on the basis of the available evidence I have, I don't think Ewers has the skill set of an test number 8.

Although it is fair to say at one point in the Lancaster era, I would have been happy enough to see him get a run.

Armand was far more unfortunate IMO. It it felt like his peak coincided with a time where our back row options were not that great and he really should have got more of a look in.

Definitely should have got a look in during the Lancaster era. The idea that at one poitn in time our best flankers were Robshaw, Haskell and Wood is horrifying. I believe there was a point in the Johnson / Lancaster era where we were the worst in the 6N (maybe even worse than Italy?) for own rucks lost and ruck penalties.

 

[Scotty]

When is the full England squad announced?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

When is the full England squad announced?

Probably not until after the Prem final

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Reckon they'll call up a bunch of people just for the Barbarians game, like they have done in the past, or will they try and keep it solely to the 6N squad and use it as a warm-up?

 

[BPM]

It's going to end up being quite a congested Autumn schedule so I suspect we'll probably end up with a very experimental side. Particularly considering that it's going to be a very low key Barbarians side.

Based upon who we have in the training squad plus a couple of Bristol players (asterisked)I'd like to see something like:

1. E. Genge
2. T. Dunn
3. W. Stuart (assuming he is fit to play)
4. D. Ribbans
5. M. Itoje
6. M. Wilson
7. B. Earl*
8. A. Dombrandt
9. A. Mitchell
10. G. Ford
11. E. Daly
12. O. Farrell
13. J. Marchant
14. O. Thorley
15. M. Malins*

16. J. Singleton 17. B. Obano 18. J. Heyes 19. A. Moon 20. T. Hill 21. H. Randall* 22. O. Lawrence 23. T. de Glanville

I think that's a pretty experimental side with 6 uncapped players and another couple with under 5

I'd prefer to have seen Smith, Simmonds or Umaga at 10 with Redpath at 12, but given two of those are playing in the Premiership final and the other two haven't made the squad, I can only assume we'll see Ford with Farrell. Particularly with no other 12 in the squad.

I was tempted to go for Hill at 6, but I'd start Wilson to give him some game time. Otherwise he could be very cold if we needed him later in the Autumn.

BTW, I know Singleton and Moon weren't in the updated training squad, but adding them back in given the expected rotation and low depth at hooker and lock.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

32 man squad:

FORWARDS
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Tom Dunn, Bath Rugby*
Charlie Ewels, Bath Rugby
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Ted Hill, Worcester Warriors
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Alex Moon, Northampton Saints*
Beno Obano, Bath Rugby*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Will Stuart, Bath Rugby
Sam Underhill, Bath Rugby
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons

BACKS
Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
Piers Francis, Northampton Saints
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
George Furbank, Northampton Saints
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Jonathan Joseph, Bath Rugby
Ollie Lawrence, Worcester Warriors*
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Anthony Watson, Bath Rugby
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

*denotes uncapped players



Furbank FFS.
Piers Francis shouldn't be there either.

Considering we're playing a dogshit moneyspinner side on sunday we should've called up some fringe exciting players not these donkeys

 

[Reiser99]

Depressingly it looks like EJ is continuing where he left off from the 6N's.

 

[BPM]

32 man squad:

FORWARDS
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Tom Dunn, Bath Rugby*
Charlie Ewels, Bath Rugby
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Ted Hill, Worcester Warriors
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Alex Moon, Northampton Saints*
Beno Obano, Bath Rugby*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Will Stuart, Bath Rugby
Sam Underhill, Bath Rugby
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons

BACKS
Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
Piers Francis, Northampton Saints
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
George Furbank, Northampton Saints
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Jonathan Joseph, Bath Rugby
Ollie Lawrence, Worcester Warriors*
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Anthony Watson, Bath Rugby
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

*denotes uncapped players



Furbank FFS.
Piers Francis shouldn't be there either.

Considering we're playing a dogshit moneyspinner side on sunday we should've called up some fringe exciting players not these donkeys

Ah yeah - loads of donkeys in there ... . Let's not forget that none of the Exeter, Wasps or Bristol players are available.

For me it's just a question of experimentation vs. prep for Italy.

I think we can do a bit of both.

The players that probably need game time the most are the Saracens players and Wilson. The rest have played a fair bit more rugby.

Crossdale is a bit of a strange one. I know he's fairly highly-rated, but McConnochie must be scratching his head - a generous inclusion in the RWC squad followed by a bit of a snub when he's been playing really well in favour of a kid who can barely break in to the Saracens 2nd team.

Francis is there pretty much because we have very few other 12s. I would have had Redpath, but I'm not too worried about that one.

Furbank is lucky to be there and is probably saved by the fact that Malins can't be selected. I'd have much preferred Luke James though. Not sure why Heinz is still around?

Eddie's gonna Eddie, but seriously, there's not that much controversy there for me.

Who should be picked that isn't there?

I already mentioned Redpath and Luke James and for this game, I'd have been tempted to call up Will Evans and maybe kept Jack Clement, but given how strong our back row options are, that would only have been for this game.

I might be missing someone obvious, but anyone else I would add isn't available because of the Premiership final situation.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who should be picked that isn't there?

One of the Saints locks, Furbank, Francis, Wilson (I love Wilson but he's played 1.5games in the last 12 months, and isn't really one for the future), Crossdale, one of Heinz/Youngs

There's no need for any of them, absentees or otherwise.

It's not the most controversial squad ever, but including players like Furbank is genuinely pants on head crazy. He had a rubbish 6N and then backed it up with poor performance after poor performance for Saints. His form wasn't even good enough to be included 8months ago, let alone now, especially over someone like McConnochie who is arguably the form winger in the country atm.



They've already changed the squad from when they initially posted it and added Curry in,
so for now it's:

FORWARDS
Tom Curry, Sale Sharks
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Tom Dunn, Bath Rugby*
Charlie Ewels, Bath Rugby
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Ted Hill, Worcester Warriors
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Alex Moon, Northampton Saints*
Beno Obano, Bath Rugby*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Will Stuart, Bath Rugby
Sam Underhill, Bath Rugby
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons

BACKS
Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
Piers Francis, Northampton Saints
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
George Furbank, Northampton Saints
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Jonathan Joseph, Bath Rugby
Ollie Lawrence, Worcester Warriors*
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Anthony Watson, Bath Rugby
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

*denotes uncapped players

 

[Reiser99]

So who has realistically missed out? We know Wasps and Exeter players are unavailable and I assume Bristol players are also unavailable in case they have to replace Wasps.

Front Row: Not really many options from the players available. I know Paul Hill's name has been thrown about, but hasn't really shown anything exceptional at Saints.
Locks: Isiekwe realistically the only player who might be missing out, but he's not really been starting for Saints. I've been trying to find some lineout stats for Northampton because with both Ribbans and Moon you'd hope they were good. Northampton really struggled after lockdown. Be interesting to see if those two are still there once the final is finished.
Back Row: I assume Sale players aren't picked still because of the positive tests? No one who I think is obviously missing out. Maybe Mercer, but there is a lot of competition in the back row. I am though in the camp of give Billy a rest.

9: #$@% this...Spencer should easily be in the squad. He's in far better form than Youngs or Heinz and for me is a better all round player. If it was Youngs and Spencer I might hope that EJ is just giving Youngs his 100 cap, but with Heinz still there it seems like he really doesn't rate Spencer at all.
FH: I'd prefer Smith to be given a chance in this game, but seems like Jones wants Umaga. Be interesting to see who gets called up after the final.
Centres: Can't see anyone really who has missed out, but maybe I'm wrong. Again depends on if there are changes after the final.
Backs: Hassell-Collins, Cokanasiga, McConnochie. Guess this is the only area where I have some disagreements, but more because Furbank has been shocking since the restart.

Actually once I look at it in each position with the final to be played there aren't a huge number of players outside of Spencer and McConnochie really who say they definitely deserve a shot. Everyone else personally is either a judgement call or are unavailable for different reasons. Question is who plays on the matchday. Will it be the same old or will some of the fringe players get a shot?

 

[Reiser99]

One of the Saints locks, Furbank, Francis, Wilson (I love Wilson but he's played 1.5games in the last 12 months, and isn't really one for the future), Crossdale, one of Heinz/Youngs

There's no need for any of them, absentees or otherwise.

It's not the most controversial squad ever, but including players like Furbank is genuinely pants on head crazy. He had a rubbish 6N and then backed it up with poor performance after poor performance for Saints. His form wasn't even good enough to be included 8months ago, let alone now, especially over someone like McConnochie who is arguably the form winger in the country atm.



They've already changed the squad from when they initially posted it and added Curry in,
so for now it's:

FORWARDS
Tom Curry, Sale Sharks
Alex Dombrandt, Harlequins*
Tom Dunn, Bath Rugby*
Charlie Ewels, Bath Rugby
Ellis Genge, Leicester Tigers
Jamie George, Saracens
Joe Heyes, Leicester Tigers*
Ted Hill, Worcester Warriors
Maro Itoje, Saracens
Alex Moon, Northampton Saints*
Beno Obano, Bath Rugby*
David Ribbans, Northampton Saints*
Will Stuart, Bath Rugby
Sam Underhill, Bath Rugby
Billy Vunipola, Saracens
Mako Vunipola, Saracens
Mark Wilson, Newcastle Falcons

BACKS
Ali Crossdale, Saracens*
Fraser Dingwall, Northampton Saints*
Owen Farrell, Saracens
Piers Francis, Northampton Saints
George Ford, Leicester Tigers
George Furbank, Northampton Saints
Willi Heinz, Gloucester Rugby
Jonathan Joseph, Bath Rugby
Ollie Lawrence, Worcester Warriors*
Joe Marchant, Harlequins
Jonny May, Gloucester Rugby
Alex Mitchell, Northampton Saints*
Ollie Thorley, Gloucester Rugby*
Anthony Watson, Bath Rugby
Ben Youngs, Leicester Tigers

*denotes uncapped players

I wrote above that I assume no Sharks have been picked due to Covid, but I guess Curry has the all clear. If Sharks players are available then I'd still want Ben in, Any of Sam Hill, Sam or Luke James would be an improvement.