England Post-WC discussion

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Lets be clear here he deemed it worthwhile keeping Ashton than getting Roko in the EPS over his 11 other changes. I don't think we can really say much more than that.

I think that's because he already has may, nowell and Watson in the squad. At the moment you don't need 4 wingers.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Whether Roko replaces Ashton or not, Jones obviously isn't that keen and Lancaster clearly didn't like something either. Yet most of us armchair fans would have had him in the squad at the very least.

With Wade it was easy to hide behind defensive weakness, but there are no such obvious on-field flaws with Roko. So, what's the story? Have there been any off-field whispers from Barf?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Whether Roko replaces Ashton or not, Jones obviously isn't that keen and Lancaster clearly didn't like something either. Yet most of us armchair fans would have had him in the squad at the very least.

With Wade it was easy to hide behind defensive weakness, but there are no such obvious on-field flaws with Roko. So, what's the story? Have there been any off-field whispers from Barf?

Currently age is the only thing I think could really be held against him now.

 

[Peat]

Whether Roko replaces Ashton or not, Jones obviously isn't that keen and Lancaster clearly didn't like something either. Yet most of us armchair fans would have had him in the squad at the very least.

With Wade it was easy to hide behind defensive weakness, but there are no such obvious on-field flaws with Roko. So, what's the story? Have there been any off-field whispers from Barf?

Rokoduguni only really broke out in the 2013-14 season. Lancaster capped him in 2014 and then he got injured - although how injured is always seemed weird - and then lost form a little. Then the World Cup was a bit of a flustercluck and Lancaster's thinking there deserves no huge consideration as to a player's worth.

Eddie Jones has been in the job for five minutes and may or may not consider Rokoduguni his 5th choice winger based on what he's seen to date. Not that keen is a bit of an assumption - it's quite possible Jones left out players he rates simply because he didn't have enough space to look at everyone.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Rokoduguni only really broke out in the 2013-14 season. Lancaster capped him in 2014 and then he got injured - although how injured is always seemed weird - and then lost form a little. Then the World Cup was a bit of a flustercluck and Lancaster's thinking there deserves no huge consideration as to a player's worth.

Eddie Jones has been in the job for five minutes and may or may not consider Rokoduguni his 5th choice winger based on what he's seen to date. Not that keen is a bit of an assumption - it's quite possible Jones left out players he rates simply because he didn't have enough space to look at everyone.

Agreed on that. In terms of who Jones wants in the long run, the summer tour will be a far better indicator. With limited changes and pressure to do well (at least not terribly) his squad now might be as much as, I don't know, 25% different to his ideal.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Maybe, maybe not, Peat, but he's clearly a lot further down the pecking order than many think he should be. And if he doesn't get the nod now, my guess is that he'll have to forget about his international aspirations.

 

[Peat]

Maybe, maybe not, Peat, but he's clearly a lot further down the pecking order than many think he should be. And if he doesn't get the nod now, my guess is that he'll have to forget about his international aspirations.

For now he is, but will that be true in the summer/autumn once Jones has had a really good look around? No one knows. There's probably gonna be a guy or two who missed this squad who becomes very important for Jones. No one knows where he'd be with Lancaster if he hadn't picked up that knock or if Lancaster had kept his job.

Maybe Rokoduguni will never happen, maybe there's a really big hole in his game we're missing. I don't want to dispute that possibility. Just there's a lot of extenuating circumstances and I don't want to say "The coaches definitely don't rate him that highly" because of them, as I feel it's not provable and there's reasonable doubt.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yarde's just smashed his face into someone's head.
Down getting treatment for a while, not sure if it's injury (jaw/cheekbone/whatever) or concussion.

Not good times to be an England winger it seems!

 

[ncurd]

Yarde's just smashed his face into someone's head.
Down getting treatment for a while, not sure if it's injury (jaw/cheekbone/whatever) or concussion.

Not good times to be an England winger it seems!

Plus this on the Roko debate you never know when someone will get injured and your the top of the pile and take your chance, I think any player 28 or younger will think they have a chance in the next 4 years to get selected. The older ones probably have diminishing chances each year but someone goes and scores 2 try's every game in the 2018/19 premiership and is 32 I suspect they'll get selected.

 

[Peat]

Plus this on the Roko debate you never know when someone will get injured and your the top of the pile and take your chance, I think any player 28 or younger will think they have a chance in the next 4 years to get selected. The older ones probably have diminishing chances each year but someone goes and scores 2 try's every game in the 2018/19 premiership and is 32 I suspect they'll get selected.

Well... Waldrom got as close to that as is possible and didn't, tbf. But in general, yeah.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Considering we've all been bemoaning the lack of leaders in England: Itoje, Clifford and Beaumont are all captaining their clubs in their early 20s.
Should be pretty set going forwards, especially if Launch takes on more of a leaders role for England too.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Considering we've all been bemoaning the lack of leaders in England: Itoje, Clifford and Beaumont are all captaining their clubs in their early 20s.
Should be pretty set going forwards, especially if Launch takes on more of a leaders role for England too.

Yep and two of them are doing it with successful clubs .

 

[stus768]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/22/james-haskell-england-number-seven

Haskell speaking some absolute tosh

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

And of those 200 breakdowns about 160 are routine recycling with no real competition for the ball. If you've got someone who can influence even a quarter of the remaining 40 either by slowing the ball down or by winning turnovers then I'd say they're worth their weight in gold. Half the battle is being smart enough to be in the right place at the right time and working out which breakdowns to contest. For all his biceps no-one's accusing Haskell of being the smartest bear in the squad.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Haskell speaking some absolute tosh

No surprises there, then... he's got a bit mouth but very little to show for all his talk.

This is not meant as a slur - but he's a great example of a player who has been successful (relatively) based on decent genetics and hard work, not natural talent or a good understanding of the game.
Because of that, I'm not sure why some people seem to give his words so much credence.

Basically, I can't ever see him having a successful coaching career...

 

[j'nuh]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/22/james-haskell-england-number-seven

Haskell speaking some absolute tosh

tbf, I agree with various points he made. The backrow does need to have balance, which hasn't been there. A 7 shouldn't just be focused solely on breakdown.

I just think he's created a bit of a straw man by saying that 7s follow the breakdown behind the defensive line.

At least, Kvesic doesn't do this. Kvesic gets in a position in the defensive line that maximises his chances that the next carry from the opposition will result in a turnover. Which usually means standing about 3ish players down the openside defensive line. Stand too tight to the breakdown and the opposition simply floods the carrier with supporting players. Doesn't matter how often the opposition do this; you're only going to get scraps when contesting. Stand too far away from the breakdown and it's too unpredictable where the ball will end up. There's a sweet spot, a pass away from the current breakdown, where forwards regularly take it into contact, and Kvesic tries to occupy a space in the defensive line around there. He can also operate on breakdowns either side of him, giving a good area to cover. Results in a lot of tackles, and a lot of breakdowns to contest, without chasing the field for them.

 

[ratsapprentice]

tbf, I agree with various points he made. The backrow does need to have balance, which hasn't been there. A 7 shouldn't just be focused solely on breakdown.

What he's said, though, is "people talking about 7's is bull****"... he clearly doesn't grasp that people saying "we don't have a 7" was them saying that the balance of our back row was off.

He's just using semantics in a poor effort to discredit criticisms of him/a team he was part of.
He's also directly stating that some of his new coach's very recently stated views are "bull****".

 

[TheSaffycen]

Let's be honest, if Haskell is only being considered an openside by Jones than he isn't going to come out and say that we need a jackal. Haskell did look good down in NZ when we toured but Kvesic has the ceiling to be considered one of the top opensides in Europe. I am now excited to see him play, if he gets his chance he will nail the shirt down for the next 4 years.

 

[j'nuh]

What he's said, though, is "people talking about 7's is bull****"... he clearly doesn't grasp that people saying "we don't have a 7" was them saying that the balance of our back row was off.

He's just using semantics in a poor effort to discredit criticisms of him/a team he was part of.
He's also directly stating that some of his new coach's very recently stated views are "bull****".

I was being kind to him

Yeah, I find it amusing that he thinks the World Cup combination lacked balance because Wood and Robshaw are very similar players. Does he not realise he's in pretty much the same bracket?

I also find it interesting that he's disagreeing with Eddie Jones. I'm not sure if that was his intention, but I can't think it was a wise move.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Also, returning to Sam Underhill briefly: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...-flanker-England-s-summer-tour-Australia.html

That article essentially confirms that he will be subject to "The Abendatige Clause" and probably selected for England this summer.
It's also the first confirmation that I've seen of this rumoured Saxons tour of SA - which would possibly be a more suitable platform for Underhill.

Also - I did hear on the Eggchasers podcast a rumour that's he's actually involved with Bath in some way, shape or form.
That's the first I'd heard of it, and there wasn't much detail... so could be ********.