England 2025/26

[Blueblackandwhite]

I prefer Max's passing and kicking game which makes him a more rounded player in total. But that's my opinion and I'd still have Seb as first choice.

I think it's harsh using his game against Italy where the England defence as a whole was terrible and the system made everyone look bad. He's a very good defender..

Dingwall's only real strength is his passing game, without that he really wouldn't get picked for anyone. My point is that he is slow and underpowered for an international 12. I didn't just pick the Italy game as an example, I picked both Italy games - that's 50% of his starts! How about the game that just happened then? Looked out of his depth didn't he? Missed tackles, no threat, anonymous, even messed up with that attempted intercept costing a try. Apart from the Wales game where England were all over them he's been terrible.

What are the 'obvious flaws'?

I don't regard Dingwall as a 'top international' but I think he is a solid all rounder. Arguably, his 'flaw' is that he doesn't have a stand out attribute.

As I said earlier, his strength (IMO) is making good decisions under pressure. That doesn't look good on the way the stats are usually measured but it's an underrated skill. Atkinson has the same strength, but carries better.

His 'obvious flaws' are that he is weak and slow for an international 12. Didn't make a great decision last night with that attempted intercept that cost a try, he missed tackles again and was generally anonymous. Unseen and unmeasurable work? Why do people keep saying this about him? It's the Emperors new clothes - he's not Richard Hill at the bottom of a ruck. He ain't up to it. Why SB thinks he's better than Ojomoh is bizzare to me. We'll have to try Lawrence at 12 and Freeman at 13 against the ABs because we can't go with him again surely? - what a mess!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

His 'obvious flaws' are that he is weak and slow for an international 12. Didn't make a great decision last night with that attempted intercept that cost a try, he missed tackles again and was generally anonymous. Unseen and unmeasurable work? Why do people keep saying this about him? It's the Emperors new clothes - he's not Richard Hill at the bottom of a ruck. He ain't up to it. Why SB thinks he's better than Ojomoh is bizzare to me. We'll have to try Lawrence at 12 and Freeman at 13 against the ABs because we can't go with him again surely? - what a mess!

If you don’t rate him that’s ok you know.

Is he weak? He’s certainly small for an international 12 and if weights are to be believed he’s a lot lighter than other 12s.

Is he slow? No. Watch him at saints week in week out and you’ll see he’s not slow.

But I didn’t see how Max went in the A team loss and I really don’t want our best 13 moved to 12 only for our best wing to play averagely at 13. Makes no sense.

 

[BPM]

I didn't see how Ojomoh played vs. the NZ XV, but it was a mixed bag from the reports I read.

Dingwall was poor yesterday and has most likely played his way out of contention moving forward, but I don't want to see a 13 at 12 and a 14 at 13 when it probably creates as many problems (if not more) than it solves.

BTW though, I'm not talking about 'unseen' work with Dingwall. It is 'seen', it's just unflashy. For example, knowing when to pass and when to carry to maximise an opportunity might mean a short pop pass released at the right time. It sounds easy but it really isn't. To measure it, you'd have to create a scenario to show what probably would have happened (based upon the defenders' positions, speed etc.) if the ball had been passed sooner/later to demonstrate why the timing of the pass was critical.

I am by no means suggesting Dingwall is our best 12 or justifying a poor performance, but by your logic, centres would be measured only on highlight reels which isn'throw the game works. Let's put it another way - Dingwall is the equivalent of a Deschamps or Makalele, not a Zidane.

TLDR: Atkinson is getting more valuable without even playing.

 

[BPM]

Also - not my favourite suggestion, but I think the obvious ‘solution’ is bringing Slade back into midfield for next week. He might flatter to deceive for England but he’s simply better than Dingwall.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Also - not my favourite suggestion, but I think the obvious 'solution' is bringing Slade back into midfield for next week. He might flatter to deceive for England but he's simply better than Dingwall.

At 13 with Lawrence at 12?

 

[BPM]

Well, I think it's been the other way round on the last couple of occasions, but it doesn't really matter given they swap around during the game.

I don’t love it, but after two poor performances, I don’t see how Dingwall keeps his place.

 

[LIONSxv]

I really wanted Dingwall to succeed as rate him very highly for Saints. However I just don't think he has the size or athleticism required for a modern test 12.

He looked really slow on a few occasions yesterday.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm willing to cut Ojomoh slack for the A game, he wasn't bad for the 2/3rds of a game I watched and Atkinson at 10 was actively poor

I can't see SB picking him this tour though, even if he'd set the world on fire for the A side I can't see SB picking someone who was dropped from the EPS/missed a few weeks training

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'm willing to cut Ojomoh slack for the A game, he wasn't bad for the 2/3rds of a game I watched and Atkinson at 10 was actively poor

I can't see SB picking him this tour though, even if he'd set the world on fire for the A side I can't see SB picking someone who was dropped from the EPS/missed a few weeks training

Sandwich between Atkinson and Hall isn’t really the best place for a 12 to showcase himself

 

[Booboobang]

I detest the caps thinking, it only tells half the story. If a player gets a ton of caps because they are a coach favourite or because a coach as determined through an arbitrary measure that you need x caps to win, that's going to count for nothing if they didn't actually deserve that many caps on merit.

We've won the world cup once, only 1 player from the top 10 most capped England players has won a world cup. I know players now play more games but caps only count for anything if a player accumulates that many because they are better than the alternatives. Jones obsessed over caps but when you look at our top 10 most capped players, can you say any of them were clearly one of the best in the world at their time? They weren't. They were mostly good internationals who got a number of caps totally out of whack with how good they actually were.

By contrast look at the list of most capped new Zealand, Australian or South African players and top 10 is full of world cup winners.

A player should be awarded caps because they are the best option, not because they already have caps.

Know this is a pullback, but just catching up since I havent been able to read due to work recently, but I agree and there are a ton of recent examples for why an arbitary cap number is a ridiculous measure that actualy just harms a teams development.

Theo Dan, ben in the england squad for a couple of years, has 19 caps, been in every squad, has improved very minimally but on caps? 3rd behind LCD and george. On actual ability? I would struggle to currently put him in the top 6/7 on allround game. He stalled while others developed.

Slade, Fantastic club player, mediocre in his prime for england poor most of the time. But pilled up caps due to conservative thinking from coaches and lack of options in his position. Does that mean anything? Does that experience mean anything if he is just not as good and got it by default? No.

The whole thinking is backwards, you want experience but then block the potentialy talented players from getting said experience because you demand experience.... If you are starting from a winning team I get it, you want phased transitions, but if you are starting from a low point which we were, its nonsensical.

 

[Scotty]

Well, I think it's been the other way round on the last couple of occasions, but it doesn't really matter given they swap around during the game.

I don't love it, but after two poor performances, I don't see how Dingwall keeps his place.

So your saying Earl to start at 12?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lockett out, Daly and Ojomoh in

Takes it up to a 37, rather than 36, man squad - Steward/Roebuck classed as injured rather than full participants?
Or is 36 just an arbitrary figure, and it's only 6N and RWC that has squad limit numbers? Not sure what the EPS says about it (/if clubs are that arsed considering no prem overlap)

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Well, I think it's been the other way round on the last couple of occasions, but it doesn't really matter given they swap around during the game.

I don't love it, but after two poor performances, I don't see how Dingwall keeps his place.

To be fair to Dingwall he was up against Tuisova who is a fantastic player. A lot of centres would struggle against him.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Borthwickhas pretty much said Daly is starting next week.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Joe

Borthwickhas pretty much said Daly is starting next week.

That's good, I'd want a nice warm up against New Zealand before playing Argentina if I was just back from a four month injury lay off.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

12. Freeman 13. Daly 15. Smith

 

[Blueblackandwhite]

To be fair to Dingwall he was up against Tuisova who is a fantastic player. A lot of centres would struggle

I'm willing to cut Ojomoh slack for the A game, he wasn't bad for the 2/3rds of a game I watched and Atkinson at 10 was actively poor

I can't see SB picking him this tour though, even if he'd set the world on fire for the A side I can't see SB picking someone who was dropped from the EPS/missed a few weeks training

I didn't see how Ojomoh played vs. the NZ XV, but it was a mixed bag from the reports I read.

Dingwall was poor yesterday and has most likely played his way out of contention moving forward, but I don't want to see a 13 at 12 and a 14 at 13 when it probably creates as many problems (if not more) than it solves.

BTW though, I'm not talking about 'unseen' work with Dingwall. It is 'seen', it's just unflashy. For example, knowing when to pass and when to carry to maximise an opportunity might mean a short pop pass released at the right time. It sounds easy but it really isn't. To measure it, you'd have to create a scenario to show what probably would have happened (based upon the defenders' positions, speed etc.) if the ball had been passed sooner/later to demonstrate why the timing of the pass was critical.

I am by no means suggesting Dingwall is our best 12 or justifying a poor performance, but by your logic, centres would be measured only on highlight reels which isn'throw the game works. Let's put it another way - Dingwall is the equivalent of a Deschamps or Makalele, not a Zidane.

TLDR: Atkinson is getting more valuable without even playi

If you don't rate him that's ok you know.

Is he weak? He's certainly small for an international 12 and if weights are to be believed he's a lot lighter than other 12s.

Is he slow? No. Watch him at saints week in week out and you'll see he's not slow.

But I didn't see how Max went in the A team loss and I really don't want our best 13 moved to 12 only for our best wing to play averagely at 13. Makes no sense.

I'm not dissing Dingwall - I think he's a good, skillful club player. My point, upon which I've been pretty consistent, was that he isn't cut out for internationals where you need to bang a bit and have some gas - I'm glad that others are noticing this now but Borthwick should have recognised this after his first cap. I think it's a shame that we've wasted time backing the wrong horse, and unfortunately now we've got the ABs at the weekend with our centre selections more confused than ever. I would rather have a ballplaying 12 to put Freeman or Lawrence through a hole, but SB doesn't rate Ojomoh and the only alternative left is Lawrence with Freeman, but it will be their first run, if it works then fantastic, problem solved, but why weren't we trying it against Fiji? He could go Slade again, which would mean Lawrence 12, Slade 13 and Freeman 14 - back to square 1 basically which would be pretty boring and a step backwards.

 

[Ddanno]

It's a long term selection buggerance. Somewhat caused by injuries to Atkinson and(earlier) Lawrence, and largely caused by sticking with players like Slade and Farrell when they were stinking up the place (and any one remember Guy Porter?).

I don't know what we have to do to get a functioning midfield but I am carving an onion into a man with a permanent cut on his nose and preparing the candle wax

 

[Blueblackandwhite]

I didn't see how Ojomoh played vs. the NZ XV, but it was a mixed bag from the reports I read.

Dingwall was poor yesterday and has most likely played his way out of contention moving forward, but I don't want to see a 13 at 12 and a 14 at 13 when it probably creates as many problems (if not more) than it solves.

BTW though, I'm not talking about 'unseen' work with Dingwall. It is 'seen', it's just unflashy. For example, knowing when to pass and when to carry to maximise an opportunity might mean a short pop pass released at the right time. It sounds easy but it really isn't. To measure it, you'd have to create a scenario to show what probably would have happened (based upon the defenders' positions, speed etc.) if the ball had been passed sooner/later to demonstrate why the timing of the pass was critical.

I am by no means suggesting Dingwall is our best 12 or justifying a poor performance, but by your logic, centres would be measured only on highlight reels which isn'throw the game works. Let's put it another way - Dingwall is the equivalent of a Deschamps or Makalele, not a Zidane.

TLDR: Atkinson is getting more valuable without even playing.

Nope, I'm not suggesting an international 12 has to be a magical strike runner, but you need enough size / pace to draw in defenders to make space for others and to be an effective defender, on top of being able to play a pass or 2. I'm not expecting Sonny Bill Williams or Ma Nonu but at the top level of a collision sport you've got to have a bit of something as an athelete. Why do you think Seb Atkinson was good on the Argentina tour while Dingwall has looked bad in 4/5 starts for England?
The difference between Fraser Dingwall and Deschamps / Makalele were that the latter were world class, ball-winning terriers who'd have got in any international side, whereas Dingwall at 12 reminds me more of when Glenn Hoddle played Jaime Redknapp at sweeper that time against Switzerland and we lost 3 nil.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm not dissing Dingwall - I think he's a good, skillful club player. My point, upon which I've been pretty consistent, was that he isn't cut out for internationals where you need to bang a bit and have some gas - I'm glad that others are noticing this now but Borthwick should have recognised this after his first cap. I think it's a shame that we've wasted time backing the wrong horse, and unfortunately now we've got the ABs at the weekend with our centre selections more confused than ever. I would rather have a ballplaying 12 to put Freeman or Lawrence through a hole, but SB doesn't rate Ojomoh and the only alternative left is Lawrence with Freeman, but it will be their first run, if it works then fantastic, problem solved, but why weren't we trying it against Fiji? He could go Slade again, which would mean Lawrence 12, Slade 13 and Freeman 14 - back to square 1 basically which would be pretty boring and a step backwards.

You can’t judge any player after 1 cap, that’s silly and you can’t say all of Dingwalls caps have been ‘bad’ either. He’s gone ok in some games and not that great in others.

I think the point you are missing is England need 3 centres in their squad. A first choice 12, first choice 13 and then a player that can play both. If we keep just moving others around we will never find out who can do those other jobs at centre. You’ll never achieve this by not giving someone a few caps to settle in to the systems etc.

Moving Lawrence and then Freeman only creates more problems than it fixes.