England 2021/22

[TRF_Olyy]

I havnt seen enough of Quirke if im honest tbh.

Basically plays like Faf with a sensible haircut

This is about the time last WC cycle he brought in curry right?

Essentially - TC and Underhill came in for the Argentina tour during the Lions, so the guys over the summer (Smith, Randall, Dombrandt) are in the same boat

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Similar story to last time, things gradually declined further and further until we had an absolutely **** 6N then Jones finally realised he had to release some of the old guard and we discovered players who were a vast improvement. I don't doubt this time will be any better. The annoying thing is Jones paints it as his rugby genius picking these guys rather than his decision was actually the wrong one (sticking with underperforming players) and it was record equalling worst performances that forced his hand.

I just hope we see a changed 8, 9, 10 & 12 who really show up the established players so Jones has no excuse at all to drop them after 1 or 2 caps.

 

[Becca]

Similar story to last time, things gradually declined further and further until we had an absolutely **** 6N then Jones finally realised he had to release some of the old guard and we discovered players who were a vast improvement. I don't doubt this time will be any better. The annoying thing is Jones paints it as his rugby genius picking these guys rather than his decision was actually the wrong one (sticking with underperforming players) and it was record equalling worst performances that forced his hand.

I just hope we see a changed 8, 9, 10 & 12 who really show up the established players so Jones has no excuse at all to drop them after 1 or 2 caps.

Totally agree.
He only acts when his hand has been forced.

 

[NickBD]

If Smith starts at 10 that pretty much guarantees Youngs to start, well he'd start anyway but with a young 10 EJ will want experience.

 

[Mumbles119]

Agree with comments on need for new 8, 9, 10, and 12.
Ignoring what Eddie will most likely do, I would love to see:
8. Dombrandt
9. Robson / 21. Quirke
10. Smith

But I have literally no idea about 12! Especially when trying to fit with the right 13. This feels like the biggest problem right now. I don't want it to be Farrell, that feels like just holding back any improvement.

Manu at 12 - tempting outside of Smith, but will probably not make it through the training weeks, and then a filler 12 not having trained will have to take his place (insert Farrell here).

Manu at 13 - more tempting as a replacement 13 for inevitable injury seems an easier choice with Slade, Lawrence or Marchant.

So this leaves choices for 12 around Kellly, Lawrence, Atkinson, or who else am I missing?
Would Atkinson be the more experienced (club level only I know) older head at 12 to support Smith properly?

TLDR: Please help with a balanced team choice of England 12 & 13 that matches with Marcus Smith, and does not include Farrell (and probably Manu due to inevitable injury)?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Would Atkinson be the more experienced (club level only I know) older head at 12 to support Smith properly?

Does Smith really need his hand held?
Only one of them is internationally capped and been on a lions tour
Plus Smith has 115 top level club appearances vs Atkinson's 141 (plus a couple seasons in the championship)

 

[Teddington Logic]

2 of the the things that annoy me most regarding Marcus Smith

1) Describing him as a "maverick" - he isn't, he just sees space earlier than everyone else and is able to react quicker
2) Implying that he is some first season kid who needs his hand holding - people really need to watch him play and listen to those who have played with him since he started playing Premiership rugby as a 17yr old

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I mean the gap between international test rugby and premiership level is massive.

Wanting experience around him isn't the same as hand holding TBF

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wanting experience around him

Is Atkinson really that much more experienced, though?
I mean he's older, sure, but that's where the line is imo
If he was lining up next to a multi-multi-cap international then yeah (plz no Farrell)

All semantics, anyway - if Atkinson were to be picked it would be off of the back of his performances not because of what he could teach Smith

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Is Atkinson really that much more experienced, though?
I mean he's older, sure, but that's where the line is imo
If he was lining up next to a multi-multi-cap international then yeah (plz no Farrell)

All semantics, anyway - if Atkinson were to be picked it would be off of the back of his performances not because of what he could teach Smith

Was thinking more Inside him at 9.
Dream world would be Manu at 12 since he's experience and let's be real Manu whole game line is just pass to him if nothing on

 

[Teddington Logic]

Lets just hope whoever plays 9 is instructed to pass it to Smith as quickly as possible rather than just kick it up in the air

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lol good one

 

[Which Tyler]

Lets just hope whoever plays 9 is instructed to pass it to Smith as quickly as possible rather than just kick it up in the air

 

[Teddington Logic]

As everyone likes to speculate, I had the following put to me in the pub a couple of nights ago

Eddie Jones has always wanted a creative, running no10. This, the running, is actually what he said he saw in Smith when he was a school boy and was the reason that he was invited to meet up with the England team.
Jones plan, as for the previous world cup is to set a new squad with a 2 year lead in to 2023.
If Smith was to be the player he hoped for, what would be the best plan for his development?
Would it be intermittent England training camps and odd cameos off the bench with corresponding absence of consistent game time (Paolo and others have all suffered from this)) or would it be 3-4 years of development under Nick Evans where he can play week in week out, developing his game management and kicking with out the glare of publicity of the AI's and 6N's? There were times over the last few years where Smith carried Quins in a way which was unbelievable for a player his age. He has now developed to a stage where other teams will have to change their structures to counteract Smith/Quins. This is the same Holy Grail that SA have at the moment which ultimately Gatland fell for and we all saw what happened
In Eddie's dream scenario he rides the wave of public clamour to unleash Smith from this Autumn with 2 years to build a team and style of play around him.
This is not actually dissimilar to how Sir CW built into winning the world cup
Eddie is not unfamiliar with fast paced attacking running rugby (Japan) as long as he has the players to do it, which he now does
Eddie is also not afraid to jetison key squad members or indeed a captain in the pursuit of world cup plan

I thought it was an interesting proposition

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

And people think Ford isn't an creative running 10? Jones coaches that **** out.

What about cips? He got what 3 games max under Eddie.

Personally I don't think Quins gameplan really requires teams to change the wheel against them. You literally have to smash them up front and suffocate them in defense. Like you should do with most attacking teams, trouble is Quins have a pretty damn balanced pack unlike say Bristol.

 

[Mumbles119]

Does Smith really need his hand held?
Only one of them is internationally capped and been on a lions tour
Plus Smith has 115 top level club appearances vs Atkinson's 141 (plus a couple seasons in the championship)

No. I definitely used a poor choice of word to say who can support Smith, sorry this is not what I was trying to say.
Completely agree that I feel Smith does not need handholding. I was wondering where Atkinson's play style and ability would work well alongside Smith.

I was trying to ask what 12/13 options would be best to get the most from the talent of Smith? (Should have said that!) Because I don't think Farrell is that answer and am too cynical to see Manu around without injury for too long.

 

[Teddington Logic]

Ford is a really good fly half and I think it is =great that he has started the season so well now that he is fully fit
He does run well and from my perspective is the 2nd best English No 10 behind Smith. Smith now has the consistent game changing capacity that is so rare in any sport

Whether he has had the flair coached out of him by Jones or has withdrawn into himself for England due to the oppressive nature of Faz and Jones's management and Faz's yes man mentality is an interesting debate. Personally I put more of the blame on Faz, but then that is probably Jones's fault in itself

As far as Cipriani is concerned, immensely talented but never consistent enough either in terms of performance or professional approach. Hence the constantly changing clubs

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England play to Eddie's orders it's pretty obvious.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[ncurd]

Ah who gives a ****, they'll cripple hime with Youngs/Faz just like Ford making the entire point of playing a fly half who can see space a waste of time.