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PommyDave
Guest
I've seen a few posts on here in the 'Your teams starting XI' thread who're suggesting England should start Cipriani ahead of Wilkinson.
Don't be foolish.
That is all.
Don't be foolish.
That is all.
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nam97
Guest
OK, thanks for the advice bud. You have shown me the way with that insightful, well thought out comment.
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toup
Guest
What about playing Wilko at 12 and Cipriani at 10?
Granted, Mr. Wilkinson is a reliable, sturdy, class act, but Cipriani brings some much needed flair, not to mention a great attacking option.
I don't think Jonny is necessarily an automatic choice at 10, but it would be foolish to leave him out altogether. I'm also not sure that the full benefit of Cipriani would be reaped at 15 as some pundits suggest. Either way, the fact that there is a decision to be made here is very encouraging for English rugby.
Granted, Mr. Wilkinson is a reliable, sturdy, class act, but Cipriani brings some much needed flair, not to mention a great attacking option.
I don't think Jonny is necessarily an automatic choice at 10, but it would be foolish to leave him out altogether. I'm also not sure that the full benefit of Cipriani would be reaped at 15 as some pundits suggest. Either way, the fact that there is a decision to be made here is very encouraging for English rugby.
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Incredible Schalk
Guest
Wilkinson is a bit like Yachvili, ie that they team he plays in usually wins but just based on a structured kicking game. If England need to open up a bit they should go for Cipriani and when its the world cup knockout stages in New Zealand 2011 Johnny can make a comeback. 
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Bullitt
Guest
lol, and why is it foolish to drop an over-rated nametag who's done nothing of consiquence since the 2003 final, even been regularly outshone by his understudy at Newcastle?
In 2007, it may as well been Andy Goode at 10, the pack did all the work and Wilkinson kicked it away instead of passing it out wide. Even Olly, 'useless-twat' Barkley provided more backs moves then him.
Retaining Wilkinson is a step in the wrong direction but is inevitable thanks to the meddaling to that other over-rated England Fly-Half arsehole, Rob Andrew.
In 2007, it may as well been Andy Goode at 10, the pack did all the work and Wilkinson kicked it away instead of passing it out wide. Even Olly, 'useless-twat' Barkley provided more backs moves then him.
Retaining Wilkinson is a step in the wrong direction but is inevitable thanks to the meddaling to that other over-rated England Fly-Half arsehole, Rob Andrew.
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C A Iversen
Guest
If Wilkinson ever had a chance of stringing a season or two together in an injury-free way, then I'd say keep him. His abilities suffer when he doesn't get consistent game time.
The odds of the above happening are slim and for Englands sake give him the farewell he deserves.....to a hospital of your choice.
The odds of the above happening are slim and for Englands sake give him the farewell he deserves.....to a hospital of your choice.
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shtove
Guest
Jonny does what it says on the tin: gets the basics right, never gives up, shows brilliance as often as the strategy allows, and always always leads - every time. One of England's greatest.
Refer to Gay Guy's thread on the ABs and the need for a general. Is Jonny worse than Carter? Better than Butch James? Can Cipriani pitch in to the 6N when he was anonymous against O'Gara in Thomond Park last week? Would Jonny have bought the dummy that gave Munster their try? And how short is the list of outhalfs who have appeared in successive RWC finals?
Jonny works. Simple as.
Next: should Stephen Jones be castrated with a blunt pair of shears in Cardiff city centre by a sheep with opposable thumbs? You decide ...
Refer to Gay Guy's thread on the ABs and the need for a general. Is Jonny worse than Carter? Better than Butch James? Can Cipriani pitch in to the 6N when he was anonymous against O'Gara in Thomond Park last week? Would Jonny have bought the dummy that gave Munster their try? And how short is the list of outhalfs who have appeared in successive RWC finals?
Jonny works. Simple as.
Next: should Stephen Jones be castrated with a blunt pair of shears in Cardiff city centre by a sheep with opposable thumbs? You decide ...
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Canuck-Backrow
Guest
What the hell are you talking about...If Wilkinson passed it our wide to use the non-existent running game England would have ended up with no points on the board
They are lucky he came back from his injury so quick or hey wouldn't have made it past the pool stages!
Why would they drop their talisman when hes finally coming back to form...I agree with the original poster...don't be foolish
Wilkinson is a living legend and will one day be recognized as one of if not THE best player ever...give him the respect he deserves please
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C A Iversen
Guest
Ever heard of an opinion? God knows I don't agree with the strength of Teh Mite's post, but he doesn't have to give Wilkinson respect if he doesn't want to.
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danny
Guest
Wilkinson should be the first name on the team sheet if hes fit . Cipriani is going to be a top player but there are still doubts over his defence and game management. I personally would play Wilkinson and bring Cipriani off the bench for a few games and introduce him to test rugby slowly.
We have rushed talented young players before and slowed their development. Careful management is crucial for our best young players.
Also Wilkinson has earned the respect of all England fans(all true fans anyway)
We have rushed talented young players before and slowed their development. Careful management is crucial for our best young players.
Also Wilkinson has earned the respect of all England fans(all true fans anyway)
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dobrien7
Guest
What happened to Glen Jackson being Englands answer at 10?
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shazbooger
Guest
That really sums up the arguement for me. I'm not saying Cipriani is or isnt any good, I just think there are a lot of questions to be asked and answered. Same applies to Flood, Geraghty and Barkley. All look impressive at times, but they arent consistent, are prone to errors, and need more experience on the picth. Wilkinson makes fewer mistakes at the moment. The safe option, but for a team in transition, thats not a bad option to have.
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Bullitt
Guest
What the hell are you talking about...If Wilkinson passed it our wide to use the non-existent running game England would have ended up with no points on the board
They are lucky he came back from his injury so quick or hey wouldn't have made it past the pool stages!
Why would they drop their talisman when hes finally coming back to form...I agree with the original poster...don't be foolish
Wilkinson is a living legend and will one day be recognized as one of if not THE best player ever...give him the respect he deserves please [/b][/quote]
Think back long and hard and I'd argue Gommersall replacing Perry after the Boks game in the group stages changed England. Wankinson made bugger all differance really.
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stormmaster1
Guest
What the hell are you talking about...If Wilkinson passed it our wide to use the non-existent running game England would have ended up with no points on the board
They are lucky he came back from his injury so quick or hey wouldn't have made it past the pool stages!
Why would they drop their talisman when hes finally coming back to form...I agree with the original poster...don't be foolish
Wilkinson is a living legend and will one day be recognized as one of if not THE best player ever...give him the respect he deserves please [/b][/quote]
Think back long and hard and I'd argue Gommersall replacing Perry after the Boks game in the group stages changed England. Wankinson made bugger all differance really. [/b][/quote]
thinking that England's turnaround was down to one or two players (wilkinson, Gommersall or any other) is short sighted. The whole team improved. Cohesiveness appeared. Forwards went from playing poorly to playing well. So much changed, less of it i suspect was really down to selection than we make out.
The same i believe is true now. It is a 15 man game and there are a number of options and styles open to Ashton and his troops. The most important thing is to win. The second most important thing is to develop a sence of unity, a team spirit. Wilkinson knows how to run the game, he knows how to lead, he knows how to win tight games and most importantly he will add to the team spirit like no other player.
I also think that the time to introduce Cipriani is when a game is wrapped up, to sample the atmosphere and to get used to his role in the England team. It will be a much better introduction to test rugby if he comes on when the other 14 players have copntrol. then he can concentrate on fitting in and finding his own game, so that he is ready for when he has to perform under real pressure.
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danny
Guest
Good to see someone thinking rather than just shouting their mouth off. No-one doubts Ciprianis talent it just needs to be nurtured.
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shtove
Guest
Problem is there may be no 6N England game in the next couple of seasons that is "wrapped up" before the final whistle. No disrespect - it's just the competition is getting tougher, and England look like they'll be unsettled for a while.
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stormmaster1
Guest
Problem is there may be no 6N England game in the next couple of seasons that is "wrapped up" before the final whistle. No disrespect - it's just the competition is getting tougher, and England look like they'll be unsettled for a while.
[/b][/quote]
Maybe "wrapped up" is the wrong phrase, as you are right the competition is tough and there are no easy games. "In control" is probably a better phrase. That said, i don't think 2 tries ahead with 10 mins left is too uncommon if the team is playing well.
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chinwaggler
Guest
I think Wilko, although a very good player in my opinion, affects the team more in a way through presence, rather than performance. What I mean is that he's one of those players, if you play with, you just think 'Hey, we can win now'. If you know wht I mean. (Not that I'd know.)
And I think younger players should be brought in slowly rather than starting matches in a very competitive tournament. Wilko will also be more consistent, and having lots more experience, will make better decisions.
I like him and I don't think many players could replace him until he's aged quite a bit.
And I think younger players should be brought in slowly rather than starting matches in a very competitive tournament. Wilko will also be more consistent, and having lots more experience, will make better decisions.
I like him and I don't think many players could replace him until he's aged quite a bit.
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Vambo
Guest
I'd start with Wilkinson against Wales with the view of giving Cipriani the last 15 or 20 minutes dependant upon how the game is panning out. If it's close and a kick may win it then I'd rather have Wilkinsons experience out there at the end but if the game is in the bag or England are chasing a try or two then that would be a good time to give Cipriani the freedom to try and create chances for the backs.
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Fantasy King
Guest
This man knows what he is talking about. The pressure of an international game, no matter who the opponents are is going to be difficult to handle if you are just thrown into the starting XV (especially if you are filling boots the size of Jonny's). Bring Cipriani in towards the end of the game, possibly a double change with Vainikolo, then utilise the running play Cipriani will create with a powerful finisher on the wing.
I dont think Ashton is stupid, and the team fought back well in the World Cup. It is time for proper team management to be considered if England are going to be threatening this season.
