Democracy You Say?

[alexrugby]

Russia's flowering democracy is under attack by KGB authorities!

As you are aware Russia bombed neighboring Georgian republic in August 2008 and still Russian troops do not leave the occupied territories.

What was the aim of this terrible war campaign? President Medvedev said: "the aim of this military action was the defence of Russia's citizens and Russian pacekeepers on the Georgian territory"

Worthy of admitting, these "citizens" are those people who forcibly recieved Russian citizenship after Russian troops gave them fake Russian passports, and "pacekeepers" are those people encouraging separatists on georgian territory.

Recently it became clear that one of the Moscow university's professor Sokolov gave some parralels between Hitler's invasion in Czech Republic with "aim" of defending local citizens of Germany and Medvedev-Putin's decisions.

Soon after this, Prof. Sokolov was fired from University with absolute absence of opportunity to regain old job.

 

[bates]

Well the only thing I know is that you don't mess with Russians.

I saw this docu about the russians no willing to sell oil to Georgia and they said this: If they want to be seperated we don't have any trouble with them but if they can't pay for our gas/oil we don't let them f...ing us around. If they still were part of the Russian empire they would get the energy for free.

But if you want to act as a big boy you have to carry the consequences.

The president of Georgia said: Even if we freeze to death we will still not bow for the Russians.

Sorry to say this Lekso, but this why some Eastblokcountries are f....ing up badly, you choose a guy who prefers playing Rambo instead of thinking about the people.

 

[feicarsinn]

tis an interesting issue alright russia is a place where you should toe the line if you want to avoid trouble but really it was a stupid comparison to make sure there are some parallels but you have to put this kind of thing in context its not like russia is going to march across all of europe tomorrow.. well at least hopefully im just glad we're not on their bad sides

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amobokobokoboko @ Oct 5 2008, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well the only thing I know is that you don't mess with Russians.

But if you want to act as a big boy you have to carry the consequences.

The president of Georgia said: Even if we freeze to death we will still not bow for the Russians.

Sorry to say this Lekso, but this why some Eastblokcountries are f....ing up badly, you choose a guy who prefers playing Rambo instead of thinking about the people.[/b]

I disagree, the Baltic states are some of the fastest growing economies in the EU with higher rates of growth and better infrastructure than, say, Belgium these days

But if you asked any ordinary lithuanian or Estonian the same question asked of Saakaashvili, that of if they'd take Russian oil or freeze, they too would say the latter.

It is very easy for us here in the West to sit about and call the President of Georgia "Rambo" and tell Georgia that they're bringing it on themselves if they refuse Russian oil and gas but lets look at the reality here.

Georgia is a state that has only just emerged from over two centuries of Russian domination, they would rather endure hardship than be sucked back under the thumb of the Russian bear.

Also, I think it very cheeky for us in Europe to tut tut at Georgia when most of continental europe barely even recognised that what Russia was doing in Georgia was wrong.

 

[bates]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Oct 5 2008, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amobokobokoboko @ Oct 5 2008, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the only thing I know is that you don't mess with Russians.

But if you want to act as a big boy you have to carry the consequences.

The president of Georgia said: Even if we freeze to death we will still not bow for the Russians.

Sorry to say this Lekso, but this why some Eastern block countries are f....ing up badly, you choose a guy who prefers playing Rambo instead of thinking about the people.[/b]

I disagree, the Baltic states are some of the fastest growing economies in the EU with higher rates of growth and better infrastructure than, say, Belgium these days

But if you asked any ordinary lithuanian or Estonian the same question asked of Saakaashvili, that of if they'd take Russian oil or freeze, they too would say the latter.

It is very easy for us here in the West to sit about and call the President of Georgia "Rambo" and tell Georgia that they're bringing it on themselves if they refuse Russian oil and gas but lets look at the reality here.

Georgia is a state that has only just emerged from over two centuries of Russian domination, they would rather endure hardship than be sucked back under the thumb of the Russian bear.

Also, I think it very cheeky for us in Europe to tut tut at Georgia when most of continental Europe barely even recognised that what Russia was doing in Georgia was wrong.
[/b][/quote]


Well Prestwick, old chap: D I agree on some of your points but what I wanted to say is the following.
I completely understand both countries their reaction and owing to historical background I know most East European countries aren't that keen on Russia.
But to play hard against hard isn't really a solution for the issues they have.

My parents in law are Polish, they were raised during communism and believe it or not, most people from their age group ( let's say mid 50's) aren't that keen on the capitalism due to very low salaries and very Western European prices. ( sorry for going off topic here)
But during one of my trainings I met Estonians and Lithuanians and they said that ( like the Polish people) their government is really investing in economy and buildings to enter the EU, fair enough, but salaries are crap and prices high. I think the situation is the same in Georgia. I don't blame Georgia for standing to their points, Belgium did the same throughout the centuries after being occupied by almost every European country there is

But like in many political situations the common citizens are becoming the victim here and off course a president should protect the people and stand up for them, but there are more and different ways to achieve your goal than what's happening know.

To get back to the original topic; imo the democracy in Russia is just superficial; Putin may be at the background but Medvedev is just a puppet. The have all the natural resources and they are keen on having power and they are not afraid of showing that ( see my first post concerning gas/oil). Everything is good as long "Russia" is in a positive way in the media, otherwise you're out.

I sometimes compare them with China (olympic games).

For all our East-European friends I really hope the political situation will change fast.

 

[alexrugby]

Oh I agree Prestwick in that we prefer to freeze whole winter instead of suck Russian politicians'.........

You know? Georgia pays for Russian Gas and I can say that no pitfalls had been detected in that side since 2003

But be sure it doesn't matter whether you pay or not, Russia always speculates with its energy resourcdes and that is something like a Dark Ages thing, as is the fact the topic is dedicated to....

Nothing is terrible in people's desire to be free and to belong to Western societies and not to Soviet Union system

And we will never say Saakashvili is wrong for his choice to aim Georgia at NATO and EU

And also Mikheil Saakashvili is not the iconic figure inside Georgia, instead he is under serious criticism from Georgian people because of his political decisions but this doesn't mean we will welcome occupant Russian army in our country

Be sure democracy and liberty of Georgia is not Saakashvili's decision but is Nation's one

And if Russia hates everybody who doesn't want to be its slave, so Russia will have to hate Georgian nation too.

But anyway could be better if Saakashvili and Putin would beat each other till death and leave our Nations Free From Their Influence

But Georgia will never enter Soviet Union again

amobokobokoboko nothing to apologise for, we have discussions here

 

[feicarsinn]

you get the feeling that Putin is going to be in charge in Russia for a long time yet and while we should be alarmed at many of his decisions as long as russia continues to prosper as it has in the past few years he will have quiet an easy time getting back into power either legitimatly or not,

on the whole matter of NATO i guess you can see why the russians are annoyed at the current situation after all it was an organisation set up pretty much to prevent them doing anything the west didnt want in the 50's still this cannot justify their recent actions.

and on a sidenote as much as id love to see georgia in the eu can it really be a realistic target within the next 15 or 20 years?

 

[shtove]

Russian stock market has fallen 50%, and they're proposing an oil/gas backed rouble. But oil/gas are going to fall in price, and if oil goes below $70 the Russian government will be in deficit and find it very hard to borrow in the credit market. The invasion of Georgia is also driving money out of their empire and they may soon be in crisis, with or without Putin.

But aren't we all!

Ireland played poker with the euro and went all in with their universal bank guarantee. Sarkozy suggested the same kind of bailout that the lunatic Americans have just passed, and the Germans said **** off - then the Germans half-imitated the Irish. And the Brits are jumping from one foot to the other, trying to guess how to stop the City of London from imploding and destroying their economy for decades (again!).

It's all insane, and I'm afraid democracy doesn't get a look in.

Good luck, Lekso - you're on your own. We're all on our own. C'est la vie.

 

[Prestwick]

I think the Economist puts it perfectly when it says that Continental Europe is wasting time laughing at the yanks to worry about their own situation. You'll notice that both the French President Sarcozy and the German Finance minister have had their fair share of crowing about how the Eurozone is, like, so much better than anything else in the, like, world.

Still, its better than doing nothing, which is effectively what we're doing in the UK. Still teetering on the edge at 0% growth...we all eagerly await to see by how much we'll go into Recession when the next quarterly figures come out later this year...

 

[alexrugby]

It's all insane, and I'm afraid democracy doesn't get a look in.

Good luck, Lekso - you're on your own. We're all on our own. C'est la vie.
[/quote]

Thank you Brother :cheers:

Well iagree feicarsinn in that georgia's perspective to enter EU is by far 15-20 years apart, because Huge deal of things we have to do here in Georgia, also NATO idea of feicarsinn is right as this organisation "tackles" russia's ambitions

Meanwhile Shtove cited aboout Russia's financial fall in these days, which is right and even Medvedev spoke out his amind about their economoical disaster in August

What is problem with Georgia and NATO is Georgia's srtong and stubborn desire to regain it's annexed territories while these parts of Georgia are full of Russian military forces, so entering NATO with Russian squad on your territory is IMPOSSIBLE

Anyway Georgia aims at west and tries hard to get rid off Russian influence, while Russia bombs us for our Desire to Western societies

One of my friend has seen Russian rocket dropped by SU 25, which did not detonate, and he was amazed as there was big ***le on Rocket: "Gruzini eta vam za Nato" which means "Georgians Get It For NATO" <_<

 

[DonBilly]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 5 2008, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Russian stock market has fallen 50%, and they're proposing an oil/gas backed rouble. But oil/gas are going to fall in price, and if oil goes below $70 the Russian government will be in deficit and find it very hard to borrow in the credit market. The invasion of Georgia is also driving money out of their empire and they may soon be in crisis, with or without Putin.

But aren't we all!

Ireland played poker with the euro and went all in with their universal bank guarantee. Sarkozy suggested the same kind of bailout that the lunatic Americans have just passed, and the Germans said **** off - then the Germans half-imitated the Irish. And the Brits are jumping from one foot to the other, trying to guess how to stop the City of London from imploding and destroying their economy for decades (again!).

It's all insane, and I'm afraid democracy doesn't get a look in.

Good luck, Lekso - you're on your own. We're all on our own. C'est la vie.[/b]

Russians should have put their monney in Ireland. I am considering opening an off-shore Bank acount in Ireland too...