Couple of questions

[tjung0831]

I'm an American following your great game. I've been loosely following Super Rugby for a few years on and off as here in America we get all the games live and free in HDTV. I recorded every game this weekend and actually watched all of them except for the Sharks and Cheetahs match but I'll get to that sometime this week. So the fact that I get access to every game is what draws me to Super Rugby, plus I love the whole South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia basis for the league.
A couple of questions for you
The Lions are not playing this year and have been relegated I assume and the Southern Kings have taken their spot? Is this now a relegation league. Will the Lions be back next year with somebody else possibly being relegated? Does this only affrect the South African teams?
Also, for some reason, the season this year goes all the way to August 1st. I don't remember the season ever being that long. I always thought it was over by June. Is there a change in the format this year?
As for the game itself, I still don't get or understand all the penalty calls so hopefully by watching every game, I'll begin to figure that out. Also not sure what roll the 22 meter line plays...still trying to figure that out.
I believe the Highlanders will be the team I support this year. While I will watch all the games and enjoy every team, it's always good to have a team to root for so I believe they will be my team. I like their stadium as well...it's got to be a good looking place to watch a match from. Other teams in my running were the Rebels and the Reds.
Appreciate any feed back you guys can give. I won't get to active in discussions here as I just don't know the game indepth yet, but I just know that I like it so I'll just lurk here for the most part. Thanks

Tim

 

[LittleGuy]

The last place South African team(very likely the Kings) will play the Lions in a relegation/promotion playoff at the end of the season so the Lions will have a chance to return to Super Rugby. This is only in South Africa, New Zealand and Australia are already pretty much tapped out at five franchises.

In NZ the population base is simply too small to sustain another team at that level and in Australia there are parts of the country where the game simply dosen't have the interest level(eg South Australia) and the talent pool would struggle with another team added in, already 2-3 of the OZ teams are mediocre to poor in quality.

Edit: Also February 2007 join date and your first post?(I'm just curious were you away from the form for several years entirely or have posts on the old database?)

 

[tjung0831]

I joined the forum back then to just get some insight regarding the league and game. I actually got rid of Directv shortly after joining the forum and didn't get Directv back until 2010. So I've been following the game on an off since 2010 since all the games are broadcast live on Directv in the States. Obviously we don't get a lot of coverage of Rugby in general over here. We get coverage of the USA Sevens and that's about it.

 

[Darwin]

Little Guy has answered most of your questions well already. The Kings situation is a complicated one, so you might need a South African to explain it if you need more detail.

The season has lengthened as you say (this happened in 2012), largely due to the addition of the June internationals during the season (with the competition taking a 3 week break to accommodate these). Previously the Southern Hemipshere tests only started after the completion of the Super Rugby season.

No-one understands all the penalties calls, so I wouldn't worry about that The 22 metre line has a few purposes - the defending team can call a mark when they catch a kick on the full behind this line, they can also kick the ball out of the full behind this line and the lineout will be where the ball went out (whereas if this is done outside the 22 the lineout is from where the ball is kicked). It also marks where a '22-metre drop-out' is taken (which happens when the defending team forces the ball behind their own goal-line).

Great to see you are supporting the Highlanders - an excellent choice! As someone who has been to the Forsyth Barr Stadium on numerous occasions I can confirm it is an incredible place to watch rugby. The stands are very steep meaning you are basically directly above the players, and you get an incredible view. The roof not only keeps the cold Dunedin weather out, but also keeps the noise in, which creates a fantastic atmosphere!

The last place South African team(very likely the Kings) will play the Lions in a relegation/promotion playoff at the end of the season so the Lions will have a chance to return to Super Rugby. This is only in South Africa, New Zealand and Australia are already pretty much tapped out at five franchises.

In NZ the population base is simply too small to sustain another team at that level and in Australia there are parts of the country where the game simply dosen't have the interest level(eg South Australia) and the talent pool would struggle with another team added in, already 2-3 of the OZ teams are mediocre to poor in quality.

Edit: Also February 2007 join date and your first post?(I'm just curious were you away from the form for several years entirely or have posts on the old database?)

I'm not sure about this. I actually think New Zealand could actually sustain another franchise, as there are plenty of players going around the ITM Cup scene that would not at all look out of place at Super Rugby. Not saying we should have another franchise (and it certainly wouldn't be financially viable), but I think we do have the player depth to do so (despite our small population base).

 

[LittleGuy]

Little Guy has answered most of your questions well already. The Kings situation is a complicated one, so you might need a South African to explain it if you need more detail.

The season has lengthened as you say (this happened in 2012), largely due to the addition of the June internationals during the season (with the competition taking a 3 week break to accommodate these). Previously the Southern Hemipshere tests only started after the completion of the Super Rugby season.

No-one understands all the penalties calls, so I wouldn't worry about that The 22 metre line has a few purposes - the defending team can call a mark when they catch a kick on the full behind this line, they can also kick the ball out of the full behind this line and the lineout will be where the ball went out (whereas if this is done outside the 22 the lineout is from where the ball is kicked). It also marks where a '22-metre drop-out' is taken (which happens when the defending team forces the ball behind their own goal-line).

Great to see you are supporting the Highlanders - an excellent choice! As someone who has been to the Forsyth Barr Stadium on numerous occasions I can confirm it is an incredible place to watch rugby. The stands are very steep meaning you are basically directly above the players, and you get an incredible view. The roof not only keeps the cold Dunedin weather out, but also keeps the noise in, which creates a fantastic atmosphere!





I'm not sure about this. I actually think New Zealand could actually sustain another franchise, as there are plenty of players going around the ITM Cup scene that would not at all look out of place at Super Rugby. Not saying we should have another franchise (and it certainly wouldn't be financially viable), but I think we do have the player depth to do so (despite our small population base).

I should have clarified my post, I think New Zealand has the talent base to support another franchise but not enough of a population base to support the financial aspects of another club(attendances etc.)...I might not be accurate here either but that was my main argument for five franchises being NZ's upper limit.

From a talent pool perspective all five franchises out of NZ are competitive on a fairly consistent basis and a 6th team would probably still be better than the Kings, Force, Rebels and possibly Cheetahs.

 

[Darwin]

I should have clarified my post, I think New Zealand has the talent base to support another franchise but not enough of a population base to support the financial aspects of another club(attendances etc.)...I might not be accurate here either but that was my main argument for five franchises being NZ's upper limit.

From a talent pool perspective all five franchises out of NZ are competitive on a fairly consistent basis and a 6th team would probably still be better than the Kings, Force, Rebels and possibly Cheetahs.

In that case I agree with you completely

 

[dasNdanger]

Heya, Tim!

Another DTV (though not HD) SuperRugby viewer here! And, like you, I record and watch all the matches. I've been following Super Rugby since it was...Super 12, I think, waaaay back about 11 years ago, give or take. I've watched all the rest, including all the northern hemisphere competitions and even the other southern hemi ones, like Currie Cup and the ITM Cup back when it was the NPC, but out of them all, I just love SuperRugby best of all.

And yes, the more you watch the more you will learn. Of course, I've been watching for...a long time now...and there's still much I don't know about the game. But I blame that mostly on me - once I learned the basics I was content to just accept whatever happened on the pitch, without being overly critical or too analytical. It's probably because I've never played the game, so I tend to be more accepting of the calls and such, without questioning what actually happened.

However, since coming here I've been able to learn a lot more. Don't be afraid to ask questions, the guys here are pretty cool about helping out with the answers. I'm sure they've rolled their eyes a couple times at me, but I roll my eyes at myself, so it's understandable.

Also, I think the play-by-play commentators can be good at helping to explain what happened, and why a penalty was called. I know most of the guys here cringe (or scream) every time I say that I enjoy Justin Marshall's commentary, because he actually explains why the penalty was called. And before someone says it, yes, sometimes he gets it wrong and he talks too much. But when you know a lot less about the game than lifelong fans, players, and ex-players, Marshall's chattiness can sometimes be very helpful. Just sayin'.


das

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm an American following your great game. I've been loosely following Super Rugby for a few years on and off as here in America we get all the games live and free in HDTV. I recorded every game this weekend and actually watched all of them except for the Sharks and Cheetahs match but I'll get to that sometime this week. So the fact that I get access to every game is what draws me to Super Rugby, plus I love the whole South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia basis for the league.
A couple of questions for you
The Lions are not playing this year and have been relegated I assume and the Southern Kings have taken their spot? Is this now a relegation league. Will the Lions be back next year with somebody else possibly being relegated? Does this only affrect the South African teams?
Also, for some reason, the season this year goes all the way to August 1st. I don't remember the season ever being that long. I always thought it was over by June. Is there a change in the format this year?
As for the game itself, I still don't get or understand all the penalty calls so hopefully by watching every game, I'll begin to figure that out. Also not sure what roll the 22 meter line plays...still trying to figure that out.
I believe the Highlanders will be the team I support this year. While I will watch all the games and enjoy every team, it's always good to have a team to root for so I believe they will be my team. I like their stadium as well...it's got to be a good looking place to watch a match from. Other teams in my running were the Rebels and the Reds.
Appreciate any feed back you guys can give. I won't get to active in discussions here as I just don't know the game indepth yet, but I just know that I like it so I'll just lurk here for the most part. Thanks

Tim

My suggestion would be for you to read through the post in the southern hemisphere section of the forum. there are about 4 threads just about the Kings, the promotion/relegation and why this was put in place in South Africa. You'll get a lot of answers there.

The other reason why the season is so long this year, is because of the British and Irish Lions tour to Australia. Which is always a much longer tour than other teams touring. that's also the reason why the Aussie conference started a week earlier than the other 2 conferences, to accomodate the B&I Lions tour.

If you have any more questions, shoot away (like Oscar Pistorius) we will be happy to help.

PS. Good to see more and more Americans watching our beloved sport... hopefully it will make them realise that NFL is really just a pussy sport...

 

[tjung0831]

Heya, Tim!

Another DTV (though not HD) SuperRugby viewer here! And, like you, I record and watch all the matches. I've been following Super Rugby since it was...Super 12, I think, waaaay back about 11 years ago, give or take. I've watched all the rest, including all the northern hemisphere competitions and even the other southern hemi ones, like Currie Cup and the ITM Cup back when it was the NPC, but out of them all, I just love SuperRugby best of all.

And yes, the more you watch the more you will learn. Of course, I've been watching for...a long time now...and there's still much I don't know about the game. But I blame that mostly on me - once I learned the basics I was content to just accept whatever happened on the pitch, without being overly critical or too analytical. It's probably because I've never played the game, so I tend to be more accepting of the calls and such, without questioning what actually happened.

However, since coming here I've been able to learn a lot more. Don't be afraid to ask questions, the guys here are pretty cool about helping out with the answers. I'm sure they've rolled their eyes a couple times at me, but I roll my eyes at myself, so it's understandable.

Also, I think the play-by-play commentators can be good at helping to explain what happened, and why a penalty was called. I know most of the guys here cringe (or scream) every time I say that I enjoy Justin Marshall's commentary, because he actually explains why the penalty was called. And before someone says it, yes, sometimes he gets it wrong and he talks too much. But when you know a lot less about the game than lifelong fans, players, and ex-players, Marshall's chattiness can sometimes be very helpful. Just sayin'.


das

I hear ya, and that might be a reason why I like the game so much is that I don't know enough about it for the officiating to make me mad. I just roll with the flow of the game and it's all good.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Okay, I am not South African but almost consider myself to be one. To explain the Southern Kings story, first we need to dive into the history of rugby in South Africa first.

Provincial rugby has always been the cornerstone of South African society. Teams like Natal (now Natal Sharks), Free State (now Free State Cheetahs), Western Province, Transvaal (now Golden Lions), Eastern Province (now EP Kings), Northern Transvaal (now Blue Bulls), Griqualand West (now Griquas) and Boland (now Boland Cavaliers) are the regions which achieved most over the last 100 years.

This map shows the areas in which a team is active. The Mighty Elephants now play under the name Eastern Province Kings, but the other teamnames are still correct.

* From now on I only use the current names for teams, to make things easier *

When Super Rugby started in 1996, as the Super 12, South Africa had 4 teams who represented the republic. In the first season these were Natal Sharks, Western Province, Golden Lions and Blue Bulls. These were still provincial teams. When the Western Province ended last of the 4 teams, they were replaced in 1997 by the Free State Cheetahs. This was all without the Eastern Province, who weren't represented. While historically being one of the biggest provinces regarding the development of rugby talent, they were completely ignored.

Then came 1998. The year of the franchises. No longer did South Africa have 4 provincial teams, but the franchises were established, combining several provincial teams into 1 franchise, to represent the whole country in 1 tournament with 4 teams.

The Cats franchise was made up of the Golden Lions, Free State Cheetahs, Griffons, Leopards, Pumas and Griquas

The Stormers franchise was made up of the Western Province, Boland and SWD Eagles.

The Bulls franchise only consisted the Blue Bulls province

The Coastal Sharks franchise was made up of the Natal Sharks, Border Bulldogs and the Eastern Province Kings.

So, since 1998, the Eastern Province was represented by the Sharks franchise.

When SANZAR, the governing body, announced in 2005 they wanted to expand to 14 teams, the newly formed franchise Southern Spears was founded. The new franchise would be made up of the Eastern Province Kings, Border Bulldogs (both previously of the Sharks) and SWD Eagles (previously part of the Stormers). When SARU had to decide who to include into the new competition, SARU, the South African Rugby Union, submitted proposals for two franchises, the other one being the Cheetahs franchise, who broke off of the Cats franchise and was made up of the Free State Cheetahs, Griffons and Griquas. With 1 of the 2 spots going to Australia, resulting in the Force franchise in Perth, SARU had only 1 spot left to fill. The other option was to replace one of the 4 existing franchises, which would not sit well with the public. SARU went with the Cheetahs franchise as their addition to Super Rugby.

The consequences were that the Southern Spears franchise was formed, players were contracted, but no matches were scheduled for the team. Since the provinces were no longer part of the Sharks and Stormers franchises, the players contracted could no longer represent these teams. SARU really messed up however in late 2006, when they guarenteed the Spears management a place in the 2007 and 2008 Super Rugby competition. To accomodate them, SARU planned a promotion/relegation system where they would automatically replace the bottom-placed SA team. However, this never happened due to the current franchises appealing this system. SARU then recitfied this by saying the Spears would not be competitive enough. A high court ruling in 2006 led to a settlement between the Spears and SARU.

3 years later, the Southern Kings, a new franchise, was formed going hand in hand with the B&I Lions visiting South Africa. The B&I Lions were the first opponent for the Kings. For 2 years the Kings tried to get into Super Rugby and when there was another expansion on the books for 2011, the Kings management thought they were in it for real this time, only to lose out to the Melbourne Rebels, making the new Super Rugby format to what it is today. 3 franchises of 5 teams, 15 in total, with an NFL-like system with wild-card spots for the play-offs and inter- and cross-conference match ups.

Last year SARU promised the Kings they would be included for the 2013 season. This is the real problem of the whole thing, SARU promising things.

To finally make it happen, and maybe to get the sobbing and *****ing management of their backs, SARU invented the promotion/relegation format where the Kings replace the bottom-placed SA team of 2012 and from 2013 onwards, to organise a promotion/relegation match-up between the, at that moment, lowest ranked SA team and the 6th team being left out. This system will be used until 2016, when the current TV contract by SANZAR ends and a further expansion is possible, to finally fit all 6 SA franchises into the Super Rugby competition.

 

[dasNdanger]

Okay, I am not South African but almost consider myself to be one. To explain the Southern Kings story, first we need to dive into the history of rugby in South Africa first...(*snipped for length)

My head hurts now, but I also understand how things work there in SA a bit better. Thanks for the explanation!

das

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Happy to help. Could have made it even more confusing by throwing in the political side to the story