Changes coming to Super Rugby?

[TRF_stormer2010]

So, you believe that the Heineken Cup has no integrity because each of the 24 teams involved only play a maximum of six of the other teams involved?

NZ won the RWC in 2011 without ever playing England or South Africa; South Africa won it in 2007 without playing New Zealand or Australia or France, England won it in 2003 without playing New Zealand. Does the RWC lack integrity because every team doesn't play every other team?

This is quite an involved question to ask since there are so many different factors between SR, HEC and RWC tournaments.

I think you can appreciate that playing every other team both home and away is the most 'fair' of formats, at least as fair as we can get in 4 dimensions.
So, speaking generally, yes, it costs those tournaments some integrity BUT to answer your question more precisely, no, I don't say those tournaments have 'no integrity' as you put it and here's why;

The HEC has 24 teams and a limited time frame seeing as it is an 'add on' tournament even if arguably more prestigious than the various European domestic comps. Factor in the fact that they include the Italian teams more for development than competitiveness and you don't have a perfectly fair competition but there are very good reasons for it being what it is. Personally I'd drop the the Italian sides and have them earn a spot through the lower tier because I think the teams in their pool have a massive advantage in that you see the teams topping those pools almost automatically get home advantage in the play offs and the 2nd teams have the best chance of progressing without winning pools.

The RWC also has more teams and just too much of a constraint on time not to have pools. Soccer has the advantage of teams being able to play 2 games a week that just would be too tough in rugby.

In Superugby we don't have those constraints for the most part. So I say there is no reason to burden ourselves with pools/conferences other than that Aussie didn't have a domestic league which they now do 9though we'll have to see how it goes.

Ideally, I would not only like to see the Conference system retained, I would like to see a proper Conference system with teams not playing outside of their Conference until the playoffs. Let SARU have six teams, drop a Japanese based team into the Australian Conference, and Pacific Islands team in the NZ Conference. Teams play home and away within their Conference (10 weeks, 11 or 12 if byes are needed).

Top two in each Conference, plus the two best third placed teams across all three Conferences progress to the quarter finals. (I understand the draw would be problematic, but it isn't something that could not be resolved).

Of course, if we could add an Argentina/Americas Conference at some future time, then the top two teams in each conference progress to the quarter finals, and its a straight draw out of a hat, with the Conference winners seeded into the home side of the draw.

While I can't- for obvious reasons- see the situation the same as NZ or Aus fans, I would probably not watch that AND the Currie Cup. It would be pointless. I and I think most South Africans want SR smaller and quicker and international, like a HEC but without pools because we are few enough teams (12 would be optimal though) and our domestic leagues take less time than the ones in Europe to make space for SR. I guess ideally I want a roughly 50/50 split; 8 teams in CC home and away amounting to 14 regular season games and (as is) 15 teams in a round robin amounting to 14 regular games. I am happy with CC to a lot of importance and wouldn't like it to be totally replaced by SR which would be the case in the above format. As is the Stormers played the Sharks 6 times last year. I wwatched and enjoyed every one but its just too much.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Read a brief article by...um...a certain former AB , and it raised some questions for me. I'll just post the bits I don't quite understand:



What are these 'significant changes' that may happen?

Also, explain please the bit about 'derbies'. This isn't a term we use in the States and so I'm often confused by what it means exactly.

Thankies in advance!


das

Derbies are the matches between two teams from the same country. Many have suggested that playing each other twice per season is too many, especially when you take into consideration finals matches and the provincial competitions.

The 'significant changes' include everything from new countries being involved to greater geographical separating of the countries (i.e. NZ teams only playing SA teams at the end of the season in finals etc.)

Actually a derby is a game between 2 teams that have had some sort of Rivalry.

The Bulls and the Stormers are a derby game, as they have been the 2 teams that have won the most trophies in the history of SA rugby. And are always competing against one another. There are also a bit of hatred as they are the 2 teams prone to "stealing" the other team's players. And also because they are the furthest (distance wise) from one another. There are a lot more minor things why this is a derby game...

The other SA derby is the Bulls vs. the Lions. It's called the Jukskei Derby. It comes from the fact that the Bulls are based in Pretoria and the Lions are based in Johannesburg. the 2 cities are merely 50km's (31 miles) away from one another, and long ago was seperated by the Jukskei River, and depending on which side of the river you lived, you had to play for that team. Nowadays the 2 cities are basically connected to one another. And the rivalry is because of the schools and the "Beeld-Trophy" they play for. In Pretoria you have Schools like Affies and Waterkloof and in Joburg you have Monument and Florida competing for the trophy and their players usually are the basis for the Craven week teams and then the Varsity Cup teams.

Another form of Derbies are found in The Barclays Premier League (soccer). You have the Merseyside derby between Liverpool and Everton. The North-London Derby between Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur and the Manchester Derby between Manchester United and Manchester City.


As for the changes, I think the current system is of a huge disadvantage to the NZ and SA conference, mainly because of the derbies. I am with the others on the opinion that we should go back to the Super 12 structure. And SARU has been trying to get the ball rolling with the whole Kings/Lions debacle. By having an even number of teams, you can easily do away of the conference system. Which has been mainly introduced to give all teams more "bye" weeks.

 

[nickdnz]

Currently?

No - currently it makes sense as it goes to who finishes top of the overall table. In your system however there aren't interconference games till the finals. It literally means who ever has the weakest conference is guarenteed a home final uncontested by the other conference.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Actually a derby is a game between 2 teams that have had some sort of Rivalry.

The Bulls and the Stormers are a derby game, as they have been the 2 teams that have won the most trophies in the history of SA rugby. And are always competing against one another. There are also a bit of hatred as they are the 2 teams prone to "stealing" the other team's players. And also because they are the furthest (distance wise) from one another. There are a lot more minor things why this is a derby game...

The other SA derby is the Bulls vs. the Lions. It's called the Jukskei Derby. It comes from the fact that the Bulls are based in Pretoria and the Lions are based in Johannesburg. the 2 cities are merely 50km's (31 miles) away from one another, and long ago was seperated by the Jukskei River, and depending on which side of the river you lived, you had to play for that team. Nowadays the 2 cities are basically connected to one another. And the rivalry is because of the schools and the "Beeld-Trophy" they play for. In Pretoria you have Schools like Affies and Waterkloof and in Joburg you have Monument and Florida competing for the trophy and their players usually are the basis for the Craven week teams and then the Varsity Cup teams.

Another form of Derbies are found in The Barclays Premier League (soccer). You have the Merseyside derby between Liverpool and Everton. The North-London Derby between Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur and the Manchester Derby between Manchester United and Manchester City.


As for the changes, I think the current system is of a huge disadvantage to the NZ and SA conference, mainly because of the derbies. I am with the others on the opinion that we should go back to the Super 12 structure. And SARU has been trying to get the ball rolling with the whole Kings/Lions debacle. By having an even number of teams, you can easily do away of the conference system. Which has been mainly introduced to give all teams more "bye" weeks.

Derby: a sports match between two rival teams from the same area.

In this context, the area is the country. When commentators talk about two many derbies they're talking about too many matches between teams from the same country.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Derby: a sports match between two rival teams from the same area.

In this context, the area is the country. When commentators talk about two many derbies they're talking about too many matches between teams from the same country.

But not all local games are seen as derbies!

A match between the Lions and the Stormers are for instance not seen as a derby, but merely a match between 2 local teams. Nobody uses the term "Derby" when these 2 teams face each other. Nobody uses any historic connotation usually connected with a derby.

and P.S. in that context you must know the difference between two, to and too!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

But not all local games are seen as derbies!

A match between the Lions and the Stormers are for instance not seen as a derby, but merely a match between 2 local teams. Nobody uses the term "Derby" when these 2 teams face each other. Nobody uses any historic connotation usually connected with a derby.

and P.S. in that context you must know the difference between two, to and too!

Except it IS seen as a derby. Every intra-conference match is a derby, that's what the commentators are talking about when they say they're getting sick of them!