Champions Cup Quarter-Final: Munster v Toulon

[pagliaccio_euforico]

@themole25 what's your opinion on Murray's try?

The rules say that "The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line" to me that would read that this shouldn't be a try unless Guirado picking the ball up means he left the ruck? (Although even then part of the ball is in line with Basta's foot) Whatever the ruling is I'm almost certain that Owens hinging the decision on a knock on was incorrect.

Having watched it a few times I don't think it was a try but I'm no expert.

Since he picked it up to run id say ruck over knock on with advantage. If he would have just moved it back for scrum half to play Murray would be offside (that's se jure illegal but defecto legal).

 

[Groundhog]

Murray's try was straight weird. My interpretation was the knock on offence ended the ruck essentially and thus removed the offside line. It's a weird one, and opportunistic for Murray, but he was lucky Owens checked it and didn't just tell him to **** off. Correct call, but lucky all the same.
Have to say we got way less change out of the Toulon back three from kicking than I thought. Wind was nasty by the looks of things.

 

[munstermuffin]

Nowhere near the same extent or amount that went against Toulon.

So humour us, who are the "some" plus why are they undertaking the "excuse searching exercises"?

Well guess that not a question I need to answer it game of opinions. Don't think Toulon got rode as much as being made. But to humour you the some are the few in various internets parts and the reason I'd suggest some are Toulon/French rugby fans. Others have grudges with Celtic Rugby for various reasons. But if you want maybe email or post a letter and ask them.

Since he picked it up to run id say ruck over knock on with advantage. If he would have just moved it back for scrum half to play Murray would be offside (that's se jure illegal but defecto legal).

That was jist I got. Key bit was nobody touched ball

 

[FrenchFan]

I'm glad that we managed to put the curse of Nige behind us. Recently we've always done badly in games where he was referee.

He's made numerous suspect calls in every game I've seen him officiate over the last three months. Can we stop calling this guy one of the best referees in the world now?

Yes please. He made a complete arse of himself.

Every fan here knows they'll get a raw deal one way or another when Nigel is on and we've given up on him - so no surprise with the final result. I'm no Toulon fan and had Munster as winners so I don't care about the result. However his performance will raise question marks even outside of this country.

He still made the wrong call after I dont know how many replays on the Zebo-Ashton air tussle in the first minute of play - some of his comments (angle of the hand tapping by Zebo who clearly makes no attempt to catch the ball) to justify his call were straight out of the Monty Python book of rugby. It's a clear penalty try to Toulon all day.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yes please. He made a complete arse of himself.

Every fan here knows they'll get a raw deal one way or another when Nigel is on and we've given up on him - so no surprise with the final result. I'm no Toulon fan and had Munster as winners so I don't care about the result. However his performance will raise question marks even outside of this country.

He still made the wrong call after I dont know how many replays on the Zebo-Ashton air tussle in the first minute of play - some of his comments (angle of the hand tapping by Zebo who clearly makes no attempt to catch the ball) to justify his call were straight out of the Monty Python book of rugby. It's a clear penalty try to Toulon all day.

As someone involved with Munster. I admit Zebo call was tight and think the fact it was so early in game played part too. But on Owens I'd say he missed alot on both sides. The pen to put Toulon to 19 the player came in at side so should've been pen other way. And Alex W non try. There was neck rolls on 2 or 3 occasions too. And yes there was probably stuff the other way too. The point is he was bad for both teams and part of it I think was he is a personality now which is never good for a ref

 

[Hanley!]

The longer I can make it through a match without realising who the referee is, the better the referee is.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The longer I can make it through a match without realising who the referee is, the better the referee is.

If the first thing you do isn't check who the ref is and say either "oh no it's X we're ******" or "ahh it's X, he's good for us" I'm not sure I consider you a real rugby fan!

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

If the first thing you do isn't check who the ref is and say either "oh no it's X we're ******" or "ahh it's X, he's good for us" I'm not sure I consider you a real rugby fan!

Especially since the ref really dictates what type of game you should expect.

Nigel is severely defense biased and will try to play through anything, i also don't think I've ever seen him give a card.

French don't care about materiality and will ping almost anything.

Saffas (jaco excluded) give a card for anything 10m away from goal. And since saffa refs do something, all American refs do it.

And shitehouse is just a coin flip at everything.

 

[munstermuffin]

Must put this one out there. Joel Jutge was asked by BeIn France (maybe wrong on station) about Zebo incident. And his answer was Owens and TMO were 100% correct on the call for 2 reasons.
1. The fact his hand comes from under can be interpreted as trying to control the ball in a 2nd sequence by pushing up to keep alive. And therefore a penalty try is 100% out of the question.
2. Chris Ashton is deemed to have had the ball in his hands as slow motion pixels showed. It is not illegal for a player to knock the ball back out of a players hands. And it is in fact a knock on and 22m dropout.

Now they are 2 very interesting points. And well I'm not sure if he was defending Nige but he did break it down well

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Must put this one out there. Joel Jutge was asked by BeIn France (maybe wrong on station) about Zebo incident. And his answer was Owens and TMO were 100% correct on the call for 2 reasons.
1. The fact his hand comes from under can be interpreted as trying to control the ball in a 2nd sequence by pushing up to keep alive. And therefore a penalty try is 100% out of the question.
2. Chris Ashton is deemed to have had the ball in his hands as slow motion pixels showed. It is not illegal for a player to knock the ball back out of a players hands. And it is in fact a knock on and 22m dropout.

Now they are 2 very interesting points. And well I'm not sure if he was defending Nige but he did break it down well

An attacking knock on in that situation is always a 5m scrum not a 22 so he's not accurate there.

And Zebo went at the ball with one hand. Deliberate batting should be treated the same as deliberate knocks, if you go up with one hand your the one who's betting you can reel it in. Idk how that wasn't a penalty try.

But going back to my post about ref tendencies. This decision makes sense given it was nige.

Was it defense biased? Yes
Did it keep card in pocket? Yes
Did it avoid penalty? Yes
Did it award negative play? Yes

Textbook nige

 

[munstermuffin]

An attacking knock on in that situation is always a 5m scrum not a 22 so he's not accurate there.

And Zebo went at the ball with one hand. Deliberate batting should be treated the same as deliberate knocks, if you go up with one hand your the one who's betting you can reel it in. Idk how that wasn't a penalty try.

But going back to my post about ref tendencies. This decision makes sense given it was nige.

Was it defense biased? Yes
Did it keep card in pocket? Yes
Did it avoid penalty? Yes
Did it award negative play? Yes

Textbook nige

But was it possible the direction of the hand going up meant it wasn't bias.
Did Zebo go for ball. Yes but Ashton had ball in hands, maybe not in control, but Zebo is entitled to slap it out of his hands.

So I guess the counter is.
Did Ashton have ball in hands? Yes
Is Zebo entitled to get it out of there? Yes
Result - As Nige did. And rewatching Sky boys now it seems they thought same.

And was pointed out the same treatment was applied for tackle on Wootton before Conway try. I do think that having listened to a few opinions of refs and pundits and rewatched a lot in slow motion it wasn't as clear cut as was being made out.

Also as was pointed out by Greenwood. Your 100% entitled to go with 1 hand to try control it. But again if Ashton is deemed to have it in hands which he did then a slap is 100% legal.
Or is that wrong?

My interpretation from ref. And from my views are that Ashton got there first and Zebo slapped it upwards out of hands. Therefore it was actually the correct call per the laws.
If Ashton didn't get there first it's possibly a pen or pen try but that isn't in play as Ashton got hands on first.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

But was it possible the direction of the hand going up meant it wasn't bias.
Did Zebo go for ball. Yes but Ashton had ball in hands, maybe not in control, but Zebo is entitled to slap it out of his hands.

So I guess the counter is.
Did Ashton have ball in hands? Yes
Is Zebo entitled to get it out of there? Yes
Result - As Nige did. And rewatching Sky boys now it seems they thought same.

And was pointed out the same treatment was applied for tackle on Wootton before Conway try. I do think that having listened to a few opinions of refs and pundits and rewatched a lot in slow motion it wasn't as clear cut as was being made out.

Also as was pointed out by Greenwood. Your 100% entitled to go with 1 hand to try control it. But again if Ashton is deemed to have it in hands which he did then a slap is 100% legal.
Or is that wrong?

You can slap it out of a players hands, but if you slap it out of his hands so that it goes into touch in goal. you are still slapping it into touch-in goal.

The whole going for the ball with one hand to control isn't really part of the game. Just look at the intentional knock, if you go with one hand its risk/reward. If you get it fine, but if you don't you have consequences.

 

[corny]

Thought the better team lost but Munster deserve credit for keeping themselves in it. They looked on the ropes in the opening quarter.

Toulon really didn't use Basteraud on a hard angle at all in the game. It was weird. It seemed to me Nonu kept eating up his space by crabbing sideways. Against smaller defenders not used to this level i was sure he'd be trucking it up all game.

The Munster backs penchant for kicking away possession (looking at you Darren Sweetnam) in good attacking positions was infuriating.

Owens did what he always does....favours the home team. Ashton was robbed.

 

[FrenchFan]

But was it possible the direction of the hand going up meant it wasn't bias.
Did Zebo go for ball. Yes but Ashton had ball in hands, maybe not in control, but Zebo is entitled to slap it out of his hands.

So I guess the counter is.
Did Ashton have ball in hands? Yes
Is Zebo entitled to get it out of there? Yes
Result - As Nige did. And rewatching Sky boys now it seems they thought same.

And was pointed out the same treatment was applied for tackle on Wootton before Conway try. I do think that having listened to a few opinions of refs and pundits and rewatched a lot in slow motion it wasn't as clear cut as was being made out.

Also as was pointed out by Greenwood. Your 100% entitled to go with 1 hand to try control it. But again if Ashton is deemed to have it in hands which he did then a slap is 100% legal.
Or is that wrong?

My interpretation from ref. And from my views are that Ashton got there first and Zebo slapped it upwards out of hands. Therefore it was actually the correct call per the laws.
If Ashton didn't get there first it's possibly a pen or pen try but that isn't in play as Ashton got hands on first.

You're describing scenarios that didn't happen. No way can Zebo control or grab the ball with One hand. He makes no attempt to even grab the ball. He just slaps it away from Ashton (not out of Ashton's hands) as Ashton is about to grab the ball with both hands and score. It's a straight pen try all day.
Owens is a clown because he still made the wrong call after many replays. That's what's astonishing. And his explanation (that can be heard on French TV) of Zebo's hand position against the ball that would somehow mitigate the offense is farcical. A slap is a slap. Hand open or with the fist doesn't matter. It's wrong.

Owens is a poor ref. He's just living off his reputation but after yesterday's display he needs to be moved to greener pasture.
This forum in the European Cup section is filled with many ref howlers from the first pool game on so it's just not me saying it. His 2 calls on the Zebo slap and Murray try are game changers. Owens is here to facilitate the game, not bend it. He just added to more **** poor reffing which ultimately puts the CCup in a bad light.

 

[munstermuffin]

You're describing scenarios that didn't happen. No way can Zebo control or grab the ball with One hand. He makes no attempt to even grab the ball. He just slaps it away from Ashton (not out of Ashton's hands) as Ashton is about to grab the ball with both hands and score. It's a straight pen try all day.
Owens is a clown because he still made the wrong call after many replays. That's what's astonishing. And his explanation (that can be heard on French TV) of Zebo's hand position against the ball that would somehow mitigate the offense is farcical. A slap is a slap. Hand open or with the fist doesn't matter. It's wrong.

Owens is a poor ref. He's just living off his reputation but after yesterday's display he needs to be moved to greener pasture.
This forum in the European Cup section is filled with many ref howlers from the first pool game on so it's just not me saying it. His 2 calls on the Zebo slap and Murray try are game changers. Owens is here to facilitate the game, not bend it. He just added to more **** poor reffing which ultimately puts the CCup in a bad light.

But if you slow it down Ashton did have it in his hands. And that is what the ref TMO and many pundits claimed. Now would Ashton have scored 100%. That is debatable. And a slap out of hands is same as a rip no? If you rip a ball out and it goes forward out of player who had ball it knock on. Same logic applied here.

On Murray try what do ye think was wrong.
Was the ball played? Yes so it's live
Was there a knock on? I think so
Did anyone touch ball after play? No so it not in ruck and is live
Was Murray onside? Yes
Was he entitled to play ball? Yes as it was live.

Now whatever about Zebo debate which is still clearly debatable I think Murray try was more lack of awareness from Toulon.

On Zebo hand position a French man in Jutge explained there actually a massive difference in Hand position. A slap down vs a push up is treated very differently. Myself included in this but obviously we don't know finer details and are wrong too.

But from watching replays Ashton had ball in hands. And Zebo slapped it out. That isn't illegal. If Ashton didn't have it in hands maybe it'd be different story but scenario is Ashton got hands on it. Hence the Ashton knock on. And in that case rules were applied correct.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Pro14 now the "Top" 14 team league in Europe?

So many complaints about refs recently but it is part and parcel of the sport where so many calls have to have an element of subjectivity. The only way to avoid it is to strip out the rules and make the sport highly simplified like League - and few would want that. You might as well complain that growing old is crap as complain that refereeing in rugby union is inconsistent.

Slamming a ref is also a bit futile as it is not like there is an abundance of clearly superior refs who would save the sport and ensure full consistency if only they got a chance to replace the likes of Owens or Lacey.

The point on ref "tendencies" is well made and the best comparison is the NFL where different officiating crews are known to have different general tendencies in interpreting the rules. It's up to the coaches to do their research and adjust play styles accordingly. Yet I rarely read remarks criticising coaches for failing to make those adjustments from week to week - it's always pinned on the refs.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

I thought it was a penalty try and yellow card all day long in regards to the Zebo incident.

He isn't attempting to catch the ball and all this chat about his hand being underneath the ball as if he is trying to control it is rubbish.

https://twitter.com/valeursdurugby/status/980138825316888576

Photo on here shows Zebo clear as day making no effort to control it and effectively slapping it away from Ashton, which would knock it out of play.

Re the Murray incident:

Law 16.6
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.

So the question isn't whether the ball is out of the ruck (which seems to have been argued) but whether there was a knock on. I was unsure however would lean to it being a knock on and therefore I'd argue it should be a scrum to Munster as the ball isn't out, and Murray is offside when he comes around. You can't illegally act just because you have the advantage.

What more annoyed me was the end of the discussion between Owens and the TMO where the TMO says it isn't clearly knocked on, Owens asks him whether he said it is clearly knocked on and then the TMO responds yes. It AGAIN has made a farce of the TMO system.

What is so bloody annoying is this. Matches now seem to be punctuated by incompetent officiating. Rather than fantastic players and rugby being celebrated post match as much as they should, the names of the refs ring louder. This weekend alone, two of the 1/4 finals can be remembered for Pearce and Owens as much as Beirne or Conway.

The TMO is also becoming a joke, reviews are of a poor quality, communication is shocking and it's just farcical.

Rant over. Congrats to a intelligent and hard working Munster side. Conway's try was immense.

 

[FrenchFan]

But if you slow it down Ashton did have it in his hands. And that is what the ref TMO and many pundits claimed. Now would Ashton have scored 100%. That is debatable. And a slap out of hands is same as a rip no? If you rip a ball out and it goes forward out of player who had ball it knock on. Same logic applied here.

Disagree. In the replay I saw from different angles and speed Ashton doesn't hold the ball. He may touch with his fingers but it is slapped away as he attempts to grab it.

But leave it. This is going to sound like sour grapes and it isn't as I wont defend Toulon and was only looking at the ref's performance.

 

[FrenchFan]

Pro14 now the "Top" 14 team league in Europe?

So many complaints about refs recently but it is part and parcel of the sport where so many calls have to have an element of subjectivity. The only way to avoid it is to strip out the rules and make the sport highly simplified like League - and few would want that. You might as well complain that growing old is crap as complain that refereeing in rugby union is inconsistent.

Slamming a ref is also a bit futile as it is not like there is an abundance of clearly superior refs who would save the sport and ensure full consistency if only they got a chance to replace the likes of Owens or Lacey.

The point on ref "tendencies" is well made and the best comparison is the NFL where different officiating crews are known to have different general tendencies in interpreting the rules. It's up to the coaches to do their research and adjust play styles accordingly. Yet I rarely read remarks criticising coaches for failing to make those adjustments from week to week - it's always pinned on the refs.

Sub-standard reffing has been rife in Champs Cup (see the number of threads pointing out same) and doesn't do the game any favour. The Cup has massive potential as a competition but it won't be fulfilled with mickey mouse officiating.

But if you think that's good for a competition already struggling due to poor marketing etc. hey no problem.

 

[munstermuffin]

Disagree. In the replay I saw from different angles and speed Ashton doesn't hold the ball. He may touch with his fingers but it is slapped away as he attempts to grab it.

But leave it. This is going to sound like sour grapes and it isn't as I wont defend Toulon and was only looking at the ref's performance.

Yes he doesn't have control but like when Wootton got hammered later it was explained once Ashton touched first which replays proved then the scenario became knock on. I'm not saying Owens had good game but just on that call it not as plain as being suggested