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when it comes to who you're praying, the more the merrier. many hands make light work! i'm catholic here but i dont like church because the hymnal lyrics belittle people in general and all that, and church is just plain boring. and singaopre, alot of the priests preach rubbish and blaspheme and the older generation just plain folow it blindly
 
Yipes, I pray to loads. I give thanks to God but when it comes to looking after me I figure the big Guy/Gal is too busy to worry about little me so I angle in on the other chaps.
...and Our Lady 'cause if God's house is anything like ours she'll be the REAL boss. ;)
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when it comes to who you're praying, the more the merrier. many hands make light work!
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Let's see...I guess where I get hung up is when Christ says (John 14:6) "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
So, when we're praying what good does it do?
I've had it explained to me that praying to the Saints is like asking some really devout, living, Christian to pray with you about things. The book of Hebrews, I believe, mentions the hosts of heaven (in reference to the dead). I can slightly see that, but I have a hard time with actually expecting a Saint to do anything. I look to Saint Patrick as a role model. I look at his devotion and his sayings and look to him as an earthly example of spiritual living. But, I don't think he can literally do anything for me. And, the whole idea of "well, it can't hurt" doesn't fly with me either. As far as Mary goes, you can't belittle who she is, but I don't believe there's a nagging human saint, prodding the almighty to do anything. If His earthly example is of any use, He (Jesus) sort of did His own thing (at 13 going away from his parents to have discussions in the Temple).
So, I believe in honoring saints, but as far as them being able to do anything, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any actual biblical reference to it.
 
Let's see...I guess where I get hung up is when Christ says (John 14:6) "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
So, when we're praying what good does it do?
I've had it explained to me that praying to the Saints is like asking some really devout, living, Christian to pray with you about things. The book of Hebrews, I believe, mentions the hosts of heaven (in reference to the dead). I can slightly see that, but I have a hard time with actually expecting a Saint to do anything. I look to Saint Patrick as a role model. I look at his devotion and his sayings and look to him as an earthly example of spiritual living. But, I don't think he can literally do anything for me. And, the whole idea of "well, it can't hurt" doesn't fly with me either. As far as Mary goes, you can't belittle who she is, but I don't believe there's a nagging human saint, prodding the almighty to do anything. If His earthly example is of any use, He (Jesus) sort of did His own thing (at 13 going away from his parents to have discussions in the Temple).
So, I believe in honoring saints, but as far as them being able to do anything, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any actual biblical reference to it.
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But to be a Saint don't you have to have had so many proper, researched miracles attributed to you. You'd think there must be something in it.
 
Yes, but what are miracles for? If you examine Christ the miracles were never for the sake of the miracles, but to direct the people that witnessed the miracles to something higher: the power and love of God. In the same way, these men and women who have performed miracles don't do it of their own might, but are powered by the Holy Spirit to direct others to God. Their devotion is what we should look at, because only the deeply devout ever have experiences like these. If you read most writings of the saints they always point back to Christ in ultra-humility. Therefore, I don't think we should look to them for anything other than as role models. It is still God who empowers these people, and if we seek empowerment, grace, protection, mercy, then shouldn't we go to the one who the saints themselves went to?
 
I think generally the miracles are to do with people praying to them and something miraculous happening rather then people themselves being able to work wonders.

It's not something we are ever going to be able to persuade each other of as it's just whatever feels right.
 
I was talking about the miracles of the saints...the actual miracles attributed to the saints.

I can't fully explain the miraculous, so I agree...we'll never be able to come to a factual conclusion, but at least you can see my logic concerning the saints in regards to scripture.
 
but at least you can see my logic concerning the saints in regards to scripture.
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Most definitely but you can see the logic of my standpoint. Many of the miracles attributed to Saints are when people pray to them and their prayers are answered. Ergo praying to Saints can help.
 
The whole thing about Mary and Saints is a funny one. I found this on a Protestantism website.

RC Heresies

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" ( I Timothy 4: 1) PRIEST- 68 to 200 A.D. This name was given to those who were leaders in the so-called Christian churches back in the second century A.D. by Luciano, another so-called early church father. Most of these priests were Jews posing as Christians. The ***le was taken from both Jewish and pagan religions.

1. OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ ... 310AD.

2. Wax Candles introduced in church about 320AD.

3. Veneration of angles and dead saints about 375.

4. The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394AD.

5. The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, 'Mother of God', as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus in .... 431AD.

6. Priests began to dress differently from the laity in 500AD.

7. The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great about the year 593AD.

8. The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ ...600AD. The Word of god forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1Cor.14:9).

9. The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church about 600AD. (Matt. 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18 )

10. The Papacy is of pagan origin. The ***le of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas, in the year 610AD. This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory I, then bishop of Rome, refused the ***le, but his, successor, Boniface III, first assumed ***le "Pope." Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Lk. 22:24-26;Eph.1:22-23;Col.1:18;lCor.3:11).Note:-Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that there is no real lst century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

11. The kissing of the Pope's feet began in 709AD. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19: 1 0; 22:9).

12. The Temporal power of the Popes began 750AD. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matt 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38 )

. 13. Worship of cross, of images and relics was authorized in 788AD. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time.

14. Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized in 850AD.

15. The veneration of St. Joseph began in 890AD.

16. The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV, in the year 965AD.

17. Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV in 995AD. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Rom, 1:7; I Cor. 1:2).

18. Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed in the year 998AD. Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 7OOAD. This is against the plain teaching of the bible. (Read Matt.15:10 1Cor. 10:25; 1Tim.4:1-3).

19. The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and not to be repeated, but only commerated in the Lord's Supper. (Read Heb.7:27; 9:26-28; 10: I 0- 14).

20. The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII, in the year 1079AD. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Tim. 3:2,5, and 12: Matt 8:14-15).

21. The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090AD. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans 1090AD. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ (Matt 6:5-13).

22. The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion ...1184AD.

23. The sale of Indulgence, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin, began in the year 1190AD. Christianity, as taught in the Bible, condemns such a traffic, and it was the protest against this traffic that brought on the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.

24. The dogma of Transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III, in the year 1215AD. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Bible condemns such absurdities; for the Lords Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ. The spiritual presence of Christ is implied in the Lord's Supper. (Read Luke 22:19-20; John 6:35; I Cor. 11:26).

25. Confession of sins to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III, in the Lateran Council, in the year 1215AD. The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Read Psalm. 51: 1 - 10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; John 1:8-9).

26. The adoration of the wafer (Host), was decreed by Pope Honorius in the year in 1220AD. So the Roman Church worships a God made by human hands. This is plain idolatry and absolutely contrary to the spirit of the Gospel. (Read John 4:24).

27. The Bible forbidden to laymen and placed in the Index of forbidden books by the Council of Valencia in 1229AD. Jesus commanded that the Scriptures should be read by all. (John5:39: lTim.3:15-17).

28. The Scapular was invented by Simon Stock, an English monk, in the year ... 1287AD. It is a piece of brown cloth, with the picture of the Virgin and supposed to contain supernatural virtue to protect from all dangers those who wear it on naked skin. It is fetishism.

29. The Roman Church forbade the cup to the laity, by instituting the communion of one kind in the Council of Constance n 1414AD. The Bible commands us to celebrate the Lord's Supper with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. (Read Matt. 26:27; I Cor. 11:26-29).

30. The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence in 1439AD. There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (Read I John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Rom. 8: 1).

31. The doctrine of 7 Sacraments affirmed in 1439AD. The Bible says that Christ instituted only two ordinances, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. (Read Matt. 28:19-20; 26:26-28 ). 32. The Ave Maria, part of the last half in 1508AD. It was completed 50 years afterward and finally approved by Pope Sixths V, at the end of the 16th century.

33. The Council of Trent, held in the year 1545, declared that Tradition is of equal authority with the Bible 1545AD. By tradition is meant human teachings. The Pharisees believed the same way, and Jesus bitterly condemned them, for by teaching human tradition, they nullified the commandments of God. (Read Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8; Rev. 22:18 ).

34. The apocryphal books were added to the Bible also by the Council of Trent in 1546 These books were not recognized as canonical by the Jewish Church. (See Rev. 22:8-9).

35. The Creed of Pope Pius IV was imposed as the official creed 1560 years after Christ and the apostles, in 1560AD. True Christians retain the Holy Scriptures as their creed. Hence their creed is 1500 years older than the creed of Roman Catholics. (Read Gal. 1:8 ).

36. The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in the year 1854AD. The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Read Rom. 3:23; 5:12; Psalm. 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

37. In the year 1870 after Christ, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of Papal Infallibility 1870AD. This is a blasphemy and the sign of the apostasy and of the antichrist predicted by St. Paul. (Read II These. 2:2-12; Rev. 17:1-9; 13:5-8,18 ). Many Bible students see the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18 ). 666 in the Roman letters of the Pope's ***le: "VICARIVS FILLII DEI." -V.5, I-1; C-100, l-l: v-5, 1-1; L-50, 1-1; 1-1-Total, 666.

38. Pope Pius X, in the year 1907, condemned together with 'Modernish", all the discoveries of modern science which are not approved by the Church... 1907AD. Pius IX had done the same thing in the Syllabus of 1864.

39. In the year 1930 Pius XI, condemned the Public Schools ... 1930AD.

40. In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is "the Mother of God.... 1931AD. This doctrine was first invented by the Council of Ephesus in the year 431AD. . This is a heresy contrary by Mary's own words. (Read Luke 1:46-49; John 2:1-5).

41. In the year 1950 the last dogma was proclaimed by Pope Pius XII, the Assumption of the Virgin Mary ....1950AD. CONCLUSION: What will be the next invention? The Roman Church says it never changes; yet, it has done nothing else but invent new doctrines which are contrary to the Bible, and has practiced rites and ceremonies taken bodily from paganism. Some scholar has found that 75 % of the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Church are of pagan origin. For over 1600 years the Roman Catholic Institution has been accumulating opinions made up in their own councils, plus other ideas taken from Judaism and other pagan religions which are absolutely opposite to the Word of God. This should be understood by the soul winner in dealing with Roman Catholics.

The Word of God shown there must be no relationship between the forces of darkness and light. You will see that this list of Heresies is not product of God, but of demons. These men left the true church because they were not real Christians. This was the beginning of the Roman Catholic priesthood and their followers ... "They went out from us, but they were not of us;" (I John 2:19) Heed the warning of the Apostle Paul, who said: "but though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:9). Realizing that I, as a Roman Catholic, am not a Christian according to the Bible, I am now willing to do what the Bible says to become a Christian. I now turn to the Lord Jesus Christ alone from faith in sacraments and unscriptural dogmas, rejecting the Roman Catholic Institution as the spiritual harlot as prophesied in Revelation 17. Being saved now by grace through faith according to the Word of God (Ephesians 2:8-10), I have absolute assurance of eternal life now, and forever in Heaven with Christ. (If you have received Christ as your personal Savior through reading this message, please send us your testimony. We will send you a Bible to help you get started in the Christian life).
 
Thanks Wigan...that's a great bunch of info. I'm a firm believer in Scripture over Tradition. A lot of the things listed are what I'm trying to learn more about.
 
The problem for protestants when it comes to miracles is that, by deriding the veneration of the saints, they run the risk of denying miraculous events in the early church as well.

The Church of England has a sort of statute of limitations, which states that the "Age of Miracles" came to an end in the 5th century. It's just not consistent. This is how modern liberalism came about - through the declining faith of enlightened protestants.

Christianity is full of paradoxes, and a lot of them are actually fruitful rather than just contradictory. I'm not a believer, but taking a legalistic approach to these things is a bit dumb IMO.

And if you want to understand how broad the catholic church can be, look up the Jansenists (probably in Wikipedia) - they followed the same logic as Calvin, and shared a lot of the criticisms that protestants have of catholicism, and yet they were once quite powerful in the Vatican and fought tooth and nail with the jesuits.
 
Thanks Wigan...that's a great bunch of info. I'm a firm believer in Scripture over Tradition. A lot of the things listed are what I'm trying to learn more about.
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*Loads up plane with Lourdes water, finger rosaries and miraculous medals*

The Church of England has a sort of statute of limitations, which states that the "Age of Miracles" came to an end in the 5th century. It's just not consistent. This is how modern liberalism came about - through the declining faith of enlightened protestants.

Christianity is full of paradoxes, and a lot of them are actually fruitful rather than just contradictory. I'm not a believer, but taking a legalistic approach to these things is a bit dumb IMO.
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Well before they go telling me what heratical and what's okay they should justify the fact that their religion was set up 'cause some fat boy quite fancied a divorce. ;):p:)

Anyway this debate has been stimulating and it's pressed me onto some interesting reading...for one split second I actually thought that Martin Luther did actually eat earthworms. :):):)
 
Henry VIII broke with the Roman church and set up the Church of England however it basically still followed the Roman Church. It wasn't until his son, Edward VI, that it became more protestant.
 
Henry VIII broke with the Roman church and set up the Church of England however it basically still followed the Roman Church. It wasn't until his son, Edward VI, that it became more protestant.
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Will you PLEASE not ruin my jokey jibes by pointing out the inaccuracies in them!

*Grumble, grumble*

;)
 
Well before they go telling me what heratical and what's okay they should justify the fact that their religion was set up 'cause some fat boy quite fancied a divorce. ;):p:)
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Exactly...which is a major problem in and of itself...plus their offspring, the Episcopalians have totally f'd up things.
 
thanks to martin luther, we have modern day revolutionaries who break off from ANY christian (catholic or not) and form their own religious societies. like Fred Phelps of West Borough? West Boro? Baptist Church. ok so he is anti gay and anti bush and anti war and anti pope, but his sermons help me relax, but i digress. sometimes there are alot of loopholes here and there in what we practise and in the scriptures, the vague and gray areas really. before we decide to blow spit pellets at each other's religion, i think its our job to work towards clearing up those hazy areas by first settling the smaller doubts. its like those lines that tell u that religion is a JOURNEY of faith something something. where i come from, there have been two new churched that sprung up a couple of years back. New Creation Church, and City Harvest Church. and i would love to burn these houses of god becos they preach this doctrine, the name escapes me now, but it is essentially this. the more you donate, the more you are blessed. so uh. what happened to the woman who dropped two copper coins into the ***he box or something. does she get swept aside because hmm, bill gates and give jesus a bath in molten gold? and oh, you know US dance chart topping artiste Sun Ho? aka Ho Yeow Sun in singapore? her husband is the head pastor of City Harvest. just a nugget of info
 
thanks to martin luther, we have modern day revolutionaries who break off from ANY christian (catholic or not) and form their own religious societies. like Fred Phelps of West Borough? West Boro? Baptist Church. ok so he is anti gay and anti bush and anti war and anti pope, but his sermons help me relax, but i digress. sometimes there are alot of loopholes here and there in what we practise and in the scriptures, the vague and gray areas really. before we decide to blow spit pellets at each other's religion, i think its our job to work towards clearing up those hazy areas by first settling the smaller doubts. its like those lines that tell u that religion is a JOURNEY of faith something something. where i come from, there have been two new churched that sprung up a couple of years back. New Creation Church, and City Harvest Church. and i would love to burn these houses of god becos they preach this doctrine, the name escapes me now, but it is essentially this. the more you donate, the more you are blessed. so uh. what happened to the woman who dropped two copper coins into the ***he box or something. does she get swept aside because hmm, bill gates and give jesus a bath in molten gold? and oh, you know US dance chart topping artiste Sun Ho? aka Ho Yeow Sun in singapore? her husband is the head pastor of City Harvest. just a nugget of info

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It's called "Prosperity Gospel" or "Prosperity Preaching" and it's shite. In the US we have all sorts of churches that are "non-denominational" or "multi-denominational" essentially meaning that they are not affiliated with any specific Christian Denomination (Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptist, Pentecostal, ect.). The pastors that start these churches usually come from a denomination but leave to pursue their own "vision" free from the rules, regulations and requirements of church standards and ethics. Therefore, they are fully funded by their members...so, why not preach the more you give the more you're blessed? It's crap! I'm sad it's spreading to Europe and the rest of the world.
What we must first accept is that Catholicism, Protestantism and Evengelicalism are not seperate Religions, but denominations of the same faith: Christianity. We share the same basic principal: Christ is the only means of Salvation and Reconciliation to God. That we can all agree upon. However since the beginning we've constantly had quarrells about all the sub-articles of faith. C'est la vie. I'm personally attending these classes not neccessarily to become Catholic, but to better understand my Catholic brothers so I personally can work towards unity. The bible says that we (the Christian Faith) are the body (one body). Therefore I belive we must be unified in our efforts of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
 
What we must first accept is that Catholicism, Protestantism and Evengelicalism are not seperate Religions, but denominations of the same faith: Christianity. We share the same basic principal: Christ is the only means of Salvation and Reconciliation to God. That we can all agree upon. However since the beginning we've constantly had quarrells about all the sub-articles of faith. C'est la vie. I'm personally attending these classes not neccessarily to become Catholic, but to better understand my Catholic brothers so I personally can work towards unity. The bible says that we (the Christian Faith) are the body (one body). Therefore I belive we must be unified in our efforts of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.
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Don't forget our Eastern Orthodox friends too...I was told once that Catholics can go to an orthodox church to meet their mass obligations but not a protestant one. The Romanists are in communion with the eastern churches but not the other fellows.

Personally I'd go to mass in an Anglican church if nothing else was available be apparently you aren't supposed to.
 
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