BLM and South African Players

[ncurd]

True Christians will only take the knee for God - or that's what they argue.

Genuflection - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There is nothing in there prohibiting them from doing before anyone else or for another cause or even if that is a genuinely taught belief. Think its got far more to do with either "you can't make me do something" or "I don't really support this" (note not saying they are racist, some people are really really blind to the fact racial injustice even still exists). Lets put it this way anyone who has not taken a knee actually been a genuine surprise?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Out of interest where has the 'not allowed to kneel due to religious beliefs' thing come from? Don't think I've ever heard of that before. Is it a well known part of Christian teachings, or is this simply the first time the issue has been brought to attention?

Well, in South Africa it's general practice to kneel when praying. So I guess that's just how it evolved.

And you see the rugby players always running on the field and taking a knee and pray before the game starts.

 

[unrated]

The one instance where I can see this blowing up into more of an issue is if a distinction is made by the players between supporting Rugby Against Racism vs BLM. Similar to an All Lives Matter vs BLM debate. Having worked and lived in SA, I've seen the impact of the Black Economic Empowerment movement and the resentment it causes amongst some white South Africans, who are marginalised in the workplace due to the actions of previous generations - on an individual level it feels and is unquestionably unfair. On a macro-level, I personally believe it's a necessary short-term evil to create a more equal society in the longer term, but I can totally appreciate that this is little comfort to the individuals who are directly and negatively impacted. For that reason, I can imagine a scenario where these players might reject a request to kneel in support of BLM because they feel, in South Africa at least, that Black Lives have been prioritised over White Lives for most of their lives. If this is the case, I think the media and public reaction in SA will be very negative. Of course, I have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that this is the case, so it is pure conjecture at this point and, in all likelihood, I think religious beliefs will be cited as the reason for not kneeling.

I'd be interested to hear from the SA-based members whether my observations of BEE from my time there ring true.

You seem to have a good grasp of many peoples feelings in South Africa. Pretty much spot on. And the the players might also not want to be pressurized to take part in a politisized movement coming from a country where politics always tries to interfere in sport, and indirectly against them.

 

[mdaclarke]

I can;t wait for the Rugby to start in earnest and hopefully all this stuff will go by the wayside

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Bit rich for some members of the South African government to jump on the racism bandwagon when it is well known their party is full of anti-white racists. For the South African players in particular they may be loathe to take the knee when they can see what the black government of SA is doing to people of their colour and their sport. Also what I feared would happen is happening, BLM has gone from supporting black Americans against police brutality to demanding everyone carry out certain acts or be branded a racist. Demanding people don't do things is one thing but demanding people do things is a different matter altogether.

The worst bit is that the original message is getting lost and resentment is actually growing against BLM now because of it. The more people make this mandatory and hammer people to do it, the more people will oppose it. People simply do not like being told what to do and threatened if they don't. I support BLM but if anyone told me to take a knee or face consequences I'd tell them to **** off.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bit rich for some members of the South African government to jump on the racism bandwagon when it is well known their party is full of anti-white racists. For the South African players in particular they may be loathe to take the knee when they can see what the black government of SA is doing to people of their colour and their sport. Also what I feared would happen is happening, BLM has gone from supporting black Americans against police brutality to demanding everyone carry out certain acts or be branded a racist. Demanding people don't do things is one thing but demanding people do things is a different matter altogether.

The worst bit is that the original message is getting lost and resentment is actually growing against BLM now because of it. The more people make this mandatory and hammer people to do it, the more people will oppose it. People simply do not like being told what to do and threatened if they don't. I support BLM but if anyone told me to take a knee or face consequences I'd tell them to **** off.

Careful now. Remarks like "their colour" and "their sport" won't go down well, as the message these guys are trying to portray is that it's "every colour's" and "everyone's sport".

Also, these guys didn't take the knee because of their religion, but also because the people supporting the BLM movement, are burning bibles and damaging churches.

Yes, the BLM movement has lost meaning, in that it was supposed to be a movement against police brutality. But the name of the movement alone is causing this uproar, in that it's portraying that Black Lives Matter, but it's also indirectly saying that other lives don't? And people are taking it way too literally. And from there it has spread to other countries to show how racism is still i big issue (if not the biggest) and how this movement is unnecessarily dividing people.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Lot of good comments here.

Bottom line though is that in the UK Joe Bloggs won't think about it that deeply and just take away the headline image which isn't a good look full stop and could easily be twisted into something more sinister by those with an agenda.

I think this is a highly personal issue and I would be deeply resentful if my employer pressured me to put forward a view in the public arena like this, irrespective of whether I agreed with the cause or not.

But if it had to be done (a whole different argument), wendyball got it right with everyone united. Last weekend was not the Premiership's finest hour.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Lot of good comments here.

Bottom line though is that in the UK Joe Bloggs won't think about it that deeply and just take away the headline image which isn't a good look full stop and could easily be twisted into something more sinister by those with an agenda.

I think this is a highly personal issue and I would be deeply resentful if my employer pressured me to put forward a view in the public arena like this, irrespective of whether I agreed with the cause or not.

But if it had to be done (a whole different argument), wendyball got it right with everyone united. Last weekend was not the Premiership's finest hour.

The thing is though, the employer isn't pressuring any of them.

It's government...

 

[ncurd]

But the name of the movement alone is causing this uproar, in that it's portraying that Black Lives Matter, but it's also indirectly saying that other lives don't? And people are taking it way too literally.

Its not because of what its about which is racial inequality and specifically formed from the statistics stating the likelihood of a black person being killed by police (in America) compared to that of a white person. Anyone who think it indirectly is saying other lives don't matter aren't really trying to engage on the point being made.

But if it had to be done (a whole different argument), wendyball got it right with everyone united. Last weekend was not the Premiership's finest hour.

I dunno it wasn't the utter farce that was F1 and even then its still a bit of a mess. They'd probably have done a lot better if just Lewis kneeled with everyone supportive behind him. Instead they this weird mix and before they started it some drivers release incredibly badly worded messages to why they weren't doing. Cricket got it pretty much spot on.


However at sporting events in general I am worried about when do the gestures stop? TBH I'm I want to hear more now about how they are going to go about fixing things from their perspective.

 

[WaterboySA]

Maybe this will give some clarity. For Christians that are serious about their religion, there is certain verses in the bible that means a lot. No, it is not more correct than others, I'm not going there. I'm just saying, it means a lot....one of those verses, maybe one of those with the most meaning, is Romans 14:11, " For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. " That is why the England player said he felt uncomfortable doing it. It does not say bowing for anything else is wrong. It is a personal thing. Taking the knee is reserved...This is just trying to give understanding, I'm not trying to convince anyone.

Then, on a more personal note. I believe all people are equal. I believe racism is wrong. As a Christian I believe it's a sin, and if you die with ANY racism in your heart, you're in trouble. BUT, I'm also not ashamed to say I DO NOT SUPPORT BLM. I do not agree with that organization's actions. Have a great day guys....

 

[ncurd]

I DO NOT SUPPORT BLM. I do not agree with that organization's actions. Have a great day guys....

BLM is not an organisation and that is essentially part of the problem. You disagree with some groups who call themselves Black Lives Matter but the movement is not definied by those groups.

From Wikipedia

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a decentralized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience in protest against incidents of police brutality and all racially motivated violence against Black people.[2] While Black Lives Matter can primarily be understood as a decentralized social movement, an organization known simply as Black Lives Matter[a] exists as a decentralized network with about 16 chapters in the United States and Canada. The broader movement and its related organizations typically advocate against police violence towards black people, as well as for various other policy changes considered to be related to black liberation.[7]

 

[WaterboySA]

BLM is not an organisation and that is essentially part of the problem. You disagree with some groups who call themselves Black Lives Matter but the movement is not definied by those groups.

From Wikipedia

I do not agree with you. I believe BLM is organized. And it also should not matter to you that I do not support them. Being a Saffer, with the politics we have, makes me uneasy with singling out certain ethnic groups and their importance. We used to live that life, remember, and it did not work out. Openly stating that I believe that racism in any form is wrong, should put you at ease. The same with those rugby players.

 

[ncurd]

I do not agree with you. I believe BLM is organized.

And you are wrong as I have shown in a cited article about the organisation.

Its also not about signaling out and showing tier importance again in cited article.


But sure I should continue to let you believe in falsehoods and dismiss BLM as a movement because you agree that racism is wrong.

 

[ncurd]

BLM isn't hard to get behind,

Do you agree racism is wrong?
Do you agree that in most countries that police violence and racially motivated violence in general targets black people disproportionately?
Do you agree we should take steps to reduce the problems within society that cause this to happen?

Congratualtions you support BLM now we can have a proper conversation of what this should be about the steps we need to take but were all on the same page that steps need to be taken.

 

[WaterboySA]

You debate on the same level as my 6 year old grandson.

 

[ncurd]

You debate on the same level as my 6 year old grandson.

I know you do but what am I.

Man you completely destroyed my argument there, I suggest you get some pointers from your grandson.

 

[unrated]

Also, these guys didn't take the knee because of their religion, but also because the people supporting the BLM movement, are burning bibles and damaging churches.

You don't know this yet. And you can't assume this yet. I know some of the old lions boys based their rugby on a religious principle with Johan Ackerman but I doubt that It would just be for religious reasons. The comments Xyspher made can ring true for these players that they want to support rugby against racism but not take a knee for BLM or perhaps even support BLM as most of their lives in SA, the government and formal rugby structures has prioritised black lives in every sphere of life. I am also just assuming, just like you and I guess these players won't speak out until after their careers are done otherwise they can kiss that Springbok badge goodbye as they will be branded a racist for exercising their freedom of expression and right not to participate in a political act.


Edit: I see Renaldo Bothma has said he does support BLM for religious reasons. But I still feel that It can't just be assumed for the rest. Especially the Du Preez brothers.

 

[unrated]

News 24 reports
Trade union Solidarity says minister of sport Nathi Mthethwa has no right to intimidate or victimise players on the basis of their support, or not, for the Black Lives Matter (BLM) movement.

This comes after the minister said earlier this week he was seeking answers from SA Rugby after South African players in England opted not to kneel in support of the movement.
Werner Human, deputy chief executive for legal matters and research at Solidarity, hit out at the minister on Wednesday.

"Such behaviour falls completely outside the ambit of the minister's powers, and it infringes on the players' freedom of speech, belief and religion. We are not even mentioning freedom of expression, for that matter - what the minister is trying to do here is to bring about a forced expression of speech. This can never be tolerated," he said in a press statement on the trade union's official website.


The players wore "Rugby Against Racism" T-shirts, but not many opted to take the knee in support of the BLM campaign.

At the Sale Sharks, where eight South Africans turned out against Harlequins, none of Jono Ross, Faf de Klerk, Coenie Oosthuizen, Akker van der Merwe, Dan du Preez, Robert du Preez, Lood de Jager or Jean-Luc du Preez opted to kneel.

They were joined by England centre, Manu Tuilagi, Wales prop, Willgriff John and Scotland wing Byron McGuigan, with only Sam Hill, Simon Hammersley, Tom Curry and Marland Yarde (all of England) opting to take the knee, as well as four of the seven substitutes.

In other matches, Gloucester's Ruan Ackerman and Worcester Warriors' Francois Venter also opted to remain standing.

Solidarity said it would step in on behalf of any of the players targeted by the minister, as well as any other sportsman or woman who are disadvantaged in practising their profession due to their refusal to support the BLM movement.

Hennie Bierman, head of the occupational guilds division at Solidarity, added: "No employer may force anyone to support a political movement. Even worse, no politician may interfere in the workplace to force an employer to do so. Professional sportsmen and women are already in a particularly precarious position with regard to job security. We cannot allow their constitutional rights to be violated as well."

Mtethwa earlier in the week said he contacted SA Rugby president Mark Alexander for more clarity on the matter.

"Upon seeing this' I interacted with SA Rugby through its president and I asked him to explain what's happening so that we are on the same wavelength.

"You must remember we were together at the World Cup in Japan as a country with some of the players and one thing which cannot be tolerated is when somebody is displaying racist behaviour and showing racist attitude.

"The president of SA Rugby did say that they are going to be having their own meeting and they will make their views known."

Human added: "For the minister to consider opposition to the BLM movement to be racist is absurd. This movement and its harmful precepts and beliefs should actually be opposed because of the negative consequences it holds for all races. Although, just because we are not prepared to bend the knee for BLM, it does not mean we refuse to grant others that freedom. What is unacceptable, however, is to victimise players because of their own choice in this regard."

Meanwhile, in an interview with Netwerk24, DA member of parliament Zakhele Mbele, also criticised Mthethwa.

"It's nothing more than a witch-hunt against players exercising their constitutional right of freedom of expression and association.

"It is precisely pronouncements like these from the minister that divide South Africans. South Africa is a constitutional democracy and freedom of choice and expression are fundamental rights," Mbele said.

Spurce and credit to Sport 24 staff

 

[ncurd]

Edit: I see Renaldo Bothma has says he does not support it for religious reasons. But I still feel that It can't just be assumed for the rest. Especially the Du Preez brothers.

Can you be a little clearer is it he doesn't support BLM for religious reasons or just taking the knee? Its just the use support.

I'm with you and Xypher BTW I far more suspect religion is convenient excuse rather than deep seated religious beliefs. Because if it was on purely on beliefs they'd be like Rokoduguni and find a different way to mark it rather than just refusing (absolute fair play to the guy BTW more should be made about as it calls to attention you can still do something).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

or just taking the knee?

Just the knee, he says he'll only kneel for God or something