Antisocial, societal issues thread

[Weldit]

‘Men don’t want to be told they are toxic’: what young people really think of Adolescence

From criticisms of its ‘awful’ second episode, to calling its depictions of misogyny so accurate that it’s triggering – Guardian readers in their teens and twenties share their verdicts on the harrowing teen murder drama

www.theguardian.com

Not sure I agree with the takes there. It's not so much they don't want to be told when they're wrong, but it's all they ever get told. Me and a few friends were talking about this the other day and we can basically count on one hand how many times we were praised, supported etc when we at least tried to do something good.

 

[ncurd]

Anyone else find this a bit fascinating...

There are a number of oddities in this story. Studies criminology, obsessed with horror movies, ASD, it's been comment that he hated women but not sure where that's come from, travelled from London to Brighton and stayed in a Travel lodge before committing the murder, collected knives...

There's more to this, too much doesn't make sense.

Haven't we long past as a society in blaming horror movies & video games.

I read somewhere once 60% of the male adult population play video games (not a surprise I'm 40 and it became absolutely prevalent in my age group). Amount of murders attributed to actual video game use almost 0.

It's one of those things "oh this person liked video games" is almost like saying "this person drives a car".

On the point about being told, I've said it other threads I think things which show toxic masculinity are good. You need to be able to recognise it in yourself and others. Equally I also think shows like Ted Lasso and Shrinking are important. I think absolutely you can be shown what being a male and it as positive thing are. I hope more things focus in that element as time goes on.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's what Karate kid and Cobra Kai are ultimately about once you look past the nostalgia and that would never happen in real life, the role of fathers/senseis in each of the generations lives whether male or female.

 

[Which Tyler]

Not sure I agree with the takes there. It's not so much they don't want to be told when they're wrong, but it's all they ever get told. Me and a few friends were talking about this the other day and we can basically count on one hand how many times we were praised, supported etc when we at least tried to do something good.

Me either, it was posted for comment.
As for praise, then, I'm afraid, there's an element of "welcome to adulthood" regardless of gender.
Support would be a different thing, but praise is absolutely reserved for exceeding expectations. As an adult "doing something good" is expected of us all.
I can agree that that's not particularly healthy, but it is gender neutral, and no excuse for toxicity.

Now, as someone who tries hard to be supportive (but not praising) of those around me (it's literally my job of work, and I try to take that aspect home as well) "Be the change you want to see in the world"

...


And yeah, yeah, I know... "Okay Boomer"

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Justin Welby tells BBC abuse in Church was 'overwhelming'

In his first interview since resigning, the former Archbishop of Canterbury tells Laura Kuenssberg about his failures on the John Smyth case.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Weldit]

Me either, it was posted for comment.
As for praise, then, I'm afraid, there's an element of "welcome to adulthood" regardless of gender.
Support would be a different thing, but praise is absolutely reserved for exceeding expectations. As an adult "doing something good" is expected of us all.
I can agree that that's not particularly healthy, but it is gender neutral, and no excuse for toxicity.

Now, as someone who tries hard to be supportive (but not praising) of those around me (it's literally my job of work, and I try to take that aspect home as well) "Be the change you want to see in the world"

...


And yeah, yeah, I know... "Okay Boomer"

It is expected as an adult, but if we're being honest, how many actually do? There's definitely a belief around that "everyone do this... But not me because...reasons".

It's the exact same thing the rich do. "Everyone should pay tax in full... But not me, as I've found a loophole"
As for kids, i do actually think it's important in steering them. Yes, some of it might seem obvious, but to a young unsure mind, they need the support.

 

[dirty harry]

Haven't we long past as a society in blaming horror movies & video games.

I read somewhere once 60% of the male adult population play video games (not a surprise I'm 40 and it became absolutely prevalent in my age group). Amount of murders attributed to actual video game use almost 0.

It's one of those things "oh this person liked video games" is almost like saying "this person drives a car".

On the point about being told, I've said it other threads I think things which show toxic masculinity are good. You need to be able to recognise it in yourself and others. Equally I also think shows like Ted Lasso and Shrinking are important. I think absolutely you can be shown what being a male and it as positive thing are. I hope more things focus in that element as time goes on.

Sadly I still see this thinking today, only recently I had a solicitor defend a young person in court, and basically used the defence that he was ASD and due to his isolation he became desensitised by violent video games. It literally got him a lighter sentence.

This isn't linked correctly, attempting to claim causality in video games and crime is rife. Even studies that have disproved this go on to talk about the difficulties of proving cause, the flaws in their own study etc, this link is wanted and not evidenced.

The same lazy thinking is prevelant throughout the media, I call it lazy but it could be attributed to be malicious. Acts that are psychotic being linked to an ideal, that has little to no causation. Take the links to a number of terror acts all being 'Jo Rogan' fans lol. Adolph, drank water, and Kier Starmer drinks water... dun dun dun!

 

[dirty harry]

Me either, it was posted for comment.
As for praise, then, I'm afraid, there's an element of "welcome to adulthood" regardless of gender.
Support would be a different thing, but praise is absolutely reserved for exceeding expectations. As an adult "doing something good" is expected of us all.
I can agree that that's not particularly healthy, but it is gender neutral, and no excuse for toxicity.

Now, as someone who tries hard to be supportive (but not praising) of those around me (it's literally my job of work, and I try to take that aspect home as well) "Be the change you want to see in the world"

...


And yeah, yeah, I know... "Okay Boomer"

I think this is mostly true, but the Internet has really changed how we treat women online especially (rightly and wrongly).

For example, if a young man posts a 'fit check' on Insta (it's a bit of a thing where people post their outfit for no god damn reason). He'll get little interaction, other than the odd nicety, and maybe a disparaging comment by a close mate.

If a woman posts the same thing, she is overwhelmingly baraged with a flood of fake praise for how amazing she looks (despite how bad she looks) and then will get a few super negative comments.

It's been proven that the fake niceties and praise aren't paid attention to, because everyone knows it's fake, but the hyper criticism hurts hard.

This is an extreme element of society, but boys and girls get these interactions regularly in general, girls are overly praised and boys are under supported, both are harmed by this but in different ways.

 

[dirty harry]

Unpopular opinion:

Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist!

 

[Yulia]

Unpopular opinion:

Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist!

I think the same. If it's "toxic", it's not a masculinity then

 

[dirty harry]

I think the same. If it's "toxic", it's not a masculinity then

This 100%

Toxic versions of masculinity, or femininity aren't within the parameters of the roles. These parameters are set societally and differ between countries and cultures.

For example, I keep hearing 'dominance'is a toxic masculinity trait. Dominance isn't gender specific, and is linked to Mania, Narcism and Psychopathy.

 

[ncurd]

Unpopular opinion:

Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist!

Okay you're a moron and don't understand the term at all. And reinforced a bunch of preconceived notions I have about you.

Men shouldn't cry....at all....ever. if you haven't heard men don't cry you're lying. And if you think that's healthy you're and idiot. And if you don't think it's toxic to reinforce that value in men then there's a lot of suicides that beg to differ.

Has anyone ever told you you man up? When it's the worst advice possible.

Toxic Masculinity isnt a term where it keans men are a more evil the women. Or that being male in inherently bad. It's simply a term for a bunch of traits and stereotypes that are reinforced by society as how men should be that have negative influences on their lives and those around them. If you think that doesn't occur you're an idiot and considering you claim to spend a huge amount of your time supporting men in need I worrynif you truly believe what you've just said if you can give the care and support needed.


Or you could just be a moron who doesn't understand what he said because a moronic surface level means you can't engage on a subject matter in a sensible manner.

 

[dirty harry]

Okay you're a moron and don't understand the term at all. And reinforced a bunch of preconceived notions I have about you.

Men shouldn't cry....at all....ever. if you haven't heard men don't cry you're lying. And if you think that's healthy you're and idiot. And if you don't think it's toxic to reinforce that value in men then there's a lot of suicides that beg to differ.

Has anyone ever told you you man up? When it's the worst advice possible.

Toxic Masculinity isnt a term where it keans men are a more evil the women. Or that being male in inherently bad. It's simply a term for a bunch of traits and stereotypes that are reinforced by society as how men should be that have negative influences on their lives and those around them. If you think that doesn't occur you're an idiot and considering you claim to spend a huge amount of your time supporting men in need I worrynif you truly believe what you've just said if you can give the care and support needed.


Or you could just be a moron who doesn't understand what he said because a moronic surface level means you can't engage on a subject matter in a sensible manner.

This might be the most sophomoric comment I've ever seen...

Overly aggressive, no intention to search for intent, knowledge or truth, and little to no experience of the subject matter.

Let's start with a simple premise, your first points, and I'm going to overlook the tone, and just ask for follow ups:

- Men shouldn't cry at all, ever. Who exactly is making this claim? I have never heard this claim in my life. What makes this masculine? Or a toxic version of masculinity?

- Men not crying isn't healthy. Are you claiming that there isn't biological reasons why men on average cry less than women? There's not a link to testosterone? Or neural pathway differences?

- did you claim men commit suicide more often due to crying less? There's causality to amount of crying and suicide ideation?

Crying is interesting, men cry less, biologically and societally speaking. Crying is not linked to emotional repression, and no part of masculinity teaches boys and men to repress their emotions.

If the masculine trait of stoicism is what your referring to that has become toxic (and it's not specifically masculine only), then not crying or showing emotions has nothing to do with stoicism. Even the idea stoicism has been manipulated or misconceived leading to this emotional repression idea is ludicrous. Virtue,

Crying and emotions are linked in the neural systems in the brain, Limbic and Lacrimal, most people cry, most people feel emotion. As mentioned earlier crying is biological and societal.

Societally crying occurs for a number of reasons, differing stimuli, from, joy, sadness, manipulation, attention, all the way to a cry for help (survival).

I don't want to go into the history of the term, how it originated for men's awareness and the misconception of abuse, through to it being weaponised and then becoming politically useful, because I could rant for days and I'm sure this is enough of a slog to get through.

I would implore you to read more around the subject, try to link how culturally we are failing boys and young men, and how their specific challenges are being ignored, hidden behind the attempt to promote desired behaviours. You may find that the claims made against men, and of toxic masculinity aren't what is being claimed, the idea men don't cry, or are told not to cry is logically incorrect.

Before I finish I'll do a quick Google search of 'men shouldn't cry', results? Page after page of articles, subreddits, youtube videos and studies on why men should cry.

Infact the closest I got was a Matt Walsh video, some Christian American guy, who makes the claim men shouldn't cry in public, unless there's a valid reason and should stay dignified, oh also a weird menzleague article that men shouldn't cry because evolutionary reasons.

So I believe the idea men should cry, has been so mainstream for so long because it's just an ineffective strategy to... I'm not sure what the biden is behind it. Men won't start crying because they are given societal permission, they cry when they need to.

To end, to discuss suicide ideation in relation to crying is crazy ignorant. I recently read a BBC article questioning why men suicide at much higher rates than women around the world, it went on to make the case that women were the victims for not having the means to suicide well enough, men are too stupid to realise they have mental health issues, and are too stubborn to ask for help, and actually prescribed forcing men to talk about their issues lol, no choice given. This article perfectly highlights the problem in today's society, men are failing at something, why won't they stop being stupid about it?!

Apologies for the rant

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[ncurd]

Snip

Great post in which I agree with almost everything you said (I mean you don't understand a rhetorical question or a single example but thats another thing entirely) you managed to explain why toxic Masculinity is massive whilst also claiming above it doesn't exist.

The only thing I disagree with is the idea men aren't told not to cry. My Dad did it to me (even though hes a big crier as hes got older) and I've seen plenty of men tell kids that.

 

[ncurd]

Also if you think I meant a basic thing like men being told they don't cry was the reason suicides were high rather than a single example of why men are told to oversimplify complex emotions which means they are unable to deal with them a positive way. You've clearly not read enough of my post.

 

[General Melchett]

Must say I find some of these subjects to be a real minefield and educating myself more is something I definitely need to do.

I feel there is growing divide between men/boys and women/girls and I think both need to make more effort to understand the others' struggles and fears. The Government in conjunction with the media should be doing more to help with this IMO.

Violence against women and girls is a huge problem and having spoken to female friends I have really tried to educate myself in understanding their fears and concerns e.g. walking home from a tube station or bus stop after dark. Some of my friends spend a fortune on Uber/Bolt because there are too many creeps walking behind them late at night and they don't feel safe. That is not right. I have learned not to walk up closely behind women & girls when it's dark even though I know I am not a threat to them. I generally cross the street where possible if I need to overtake them. It saddens me that the actions of a minority of men have made women & girls so fearful of men in general. If I saw a woman or girl being attacked on the street I wouldn't hesitate to step in and help them. I would like to think many other men would do the same.

I also think there is a lack of appreciation of boys & mens' struggles. Depression, loneliness, low self esteem, constant rejection, lack of role models. It is no wonder that suicide rates are rising and boys are turning to people like Tate.

 

[Welsh Exile]

 

[ncurd]

I find some of these subjects to be a real minefield and educating myself more is something I definitely need to do.

I also think there is a lack of appreciation of boys & mens' struggles. Depression, loneliness, low self esteem, constant rejection, lack of role models. It is no wonder that suicide rates are rising and boys are turning to people like Tate.

I think one of the issues isn't the lack of appreciation. But the likes of Tate and other right wing reactionaries coopting the issues.

The reaction to metoo with people needing to say not all men or engaging whataboutary in saying about men's issues. Is a prime example.

It's frustrating you try to have sensible conversations sbout a certain topic and people want to make it about something diffrent. The amount of people I know who bring up men's health issues and actually are an activist rather than someone trying to move from a diffrent discussion (usually about violence towards women) I can count on one hand.

 

[General Melchett]

I think one of the issues isn't the lack of appreciation. But the likes of Tate and other right wing reactionaries coopting the issues.

The reaction to metoo with people needing to say not all men or engaging whataboutary in saying about men's issues. Is a prime example.

It's frustrating you try to have sensible conversations sbout a certain topic and people want to make it about something diffrent. The amount of people I know who bring up men's health issues and actually are an activist rather than someone trying to move from a diffrent discussion (usually about violence towards women) I can count on one hand.

Yeah I don't like the whataboutery either - it's not a competition and separate conversations need to be had.

Yes there is a corruption but I do think there is a lack of appreciation as I have spoken to many women and girls who didn't appreciate boys and mens struggles in the same way I didn't appreciate women and girls fears before taking it upon myself to self educate. FWIW I'm not comfortable discussing both together here in the same post as they are separate conversations.