A Political Thread pt. 2

[Which Tyler]

Oh, wrong post! There was a promise to stay in the EU as far as I recall, I've heard some Scots complaining that way since too.

I don't think there was ever any promise that an independant Scotland would remain in the EU - or at least, not a promise that actually held any water - any chance of a (contemporary) link?
The discussion was quite the opposite, albeit with a theoretical fast-track process (with plenty of objections from the likes of Spain, dealing with their own separatist movement)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't think there was ever any promise that an independant Scotland would remain in the EU - or at least, not a promise that actually held any water - any chance of a (contemporary) link?
The discussion was quite the opposite, albeit with a theoretical fast-track process (with plenty of objections from the likes of Spain, dealing with their own separatist movement)

We're getting our wires crossed - the vote no crowd promised the UK would stay in the EU.

Scotland need a ref now though, the EU would take them with open arms - "Look at what happens when you leave" would be a pretty steong message to eastern European countries who are dissatisfied. They need to make an insufferable amount of fuss about it over the next couple of years.

From an Irish nationalist perspective, I think one more tory term is all that's needed. I don't think Scotland stay in the union if Ireland unifies and vice versa.

 

[Which Tyler]

We're getting our wires crossed

The story of my commenting on this thread today

The vote no crowd promised the UK would stay in the EU.

Define "promise".
The status quo at the time was that the UK was in the EU, and there was no realistic option for that changing in 2014.
That's doesn't make it a "blatant lie"

Scotland need a ref now though, the EU would take them with open arms - "Look at what happens when you leave" would be a pretty steong message to eastern European countries who are dissatisfied. They need to make an insufferable amount of fuss about it over the next couple of years.

From an Irish nationalist perspective, I think one more tory term is all that's needed. I don't think Scotland stay in the union if Ireland unifies and vice versa.

Agreed; though Spain (amongst others) would still need quite a lot of pork thrown their way.

 

[General Melchett]

Scotland need a ref now though, the EU would take them with open arms - "Look at what happens when you leave" would be a pretty steong message to eastern European countries who are dissatisfied. They need to make an insufferable amount of fuss about it over the next couple of years.

From an Irish nationalist perspective, I think one more tory term is all that's needed. I don't think Scotland stay in the union if Ireland unifies and vice versa.

Sturgeon sounding very bullish at her presser an hour ago. Making a fuss is exactly what she has in mind. She's already launching her attack lines such as democracy is being denied, the UK is no longer a voluntary union or partnership and that Scotland is being held hostage etc.

The SNP couldn't ask for a better backdrop - Tory Govt in power, cost of living crisis, austerity on the way, Brexit failing. The only thing that would make it even better would be if Boris was still PM.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Scotland is being held hostage

Pfft, it was a Scottish king that caused the union - if anything it's England being held hostage!





Are Scotland in a position to legitimately apply to join the EU?
Everything I've read has said there are huge hurdles that they'd need to overcome (currency and borders the two biggies) and the the fast track the SNP hint at is just pie in the sky?

 

[General Melchett]

Pfft, it was a Scottish king that caused the union - if anything it's England being held hostage!

View attachment 15537



Are Scotland in a position to legitimately apply to join the EU?
Everything I've read has said there are huge hurdles that they'd need to overcome (currency and borders the two biggies) and the the fast track the SNP hint at is just pie in the sky?

Maybe you should start an English Indyref movement.

I'm pretty sure EU membership would be on the cards as Scotland is exactly the type of country that ticks the EU's boxes. The currency issue as well as other separation issues like the border would need to be sorted out - similar to the Brexit settlement with the EU. It'll be messy and take a while. The EU won't comment until after any referendum has taken place and of course they need to deal with Spain who will no doubt express concerns.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm pretty sure EU membership would be on the cards as Scotland is exactly the type of country that ticks the EU's boxes. The currency issue as well as other separation issues would need to be sorted out - similar to the Brexit settlement with the EU. It'll be messy and take a while. The EU won't comment until after any referendum has taken place and of course they need to deal with Spain who will no doubt express concerns.

What about joining the Schengen zone? That would require a hard border with the rest of the UK wouldn't it?
I've seen people point to the NI border, but that's a separate issue because of the GFA

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Sturgeon sounding very bullish at her presser an hour ago. Making a fuss is exactly what she has in mind. She's already launching her attack lines such as democracy is being denied, the UK is no longer a voluntary union or partnership and that Scotland is being held hostage etc.

The SNP couldn't ask for a better backdrop - Tory Govt in power, cost of living crisis, austerity on the way, Brexit failing. The only thing that would make it even better would be if Boris was still PM.

The thing is, neither side is wrong or right depending on how you look at it.

On the one hand, the Scots did have an opportunity to vote and voted now. Circumstances have changed but to claim their democratic right has been denied is nonsense, they DID get a vote, they simply don't like the result. This then begs the question, can we just go on with neverendums? If the no vote is only temporary until yes get their chance to vote again, surely the reverse would also be true and that a yes vote is temporary until no can call for another referendum? You only have to look at Brexit where the opposite result has happened and some are calling for a reversal after seeing what a fuckup it was. Where is the line drawn on which results are accepted and when another referendum can be held on the same issue? Also there is the issue of what exactly counts as a suitable body to demand a referendum? If the Cornish demanded a referendum, would their rights have been denied by saying no? How about the north of England? The highlands within Scotland? Where is the line drawn?

On the flip side, the same question; once a referendum result has happened is that it and nothing can change? We had a referendum on joining the predecessor to the EU and one of the arguments made by leave was that the body we had voted to join had changed so much it was no longer the same entity we had originally voted to join. Whilst less time has passed, the Scots could argue that the claim they would be able to stay in the EU as part of the UK but not as an independent nation definitely played a role in the vote. This has now turned out to not be valid and thus the conditions have drastically changed, just the same as Brexiters argued.

Whatever happens though, the Cameron - Sunak Tory regime will likely go down in history as one of the most destructive to this country in a long long time. The video above highlights just how much damage they have done and they could be the ones that oversaw the final destruction of the UK.

 

[General Melchett]

What about joining the Schengen zone? That would require a hard border with the rest of the UK wouldn't it?
I've seen people point to the NI border, but that's a separate issue because of the GFA

I don't have all the answers but if I'm not mistaken there is a free travel (Schengen type) arrangement between the UK and Ireland (who aren't part of Schengen) and so I imagine Scotland would be outside the Schengen and have a similar arrangement to Ireland.

A hard border between Scotland and England would create all sorts of problems. I imagine neither side would want that. They can't even sort out NI protocol so who knows how they'd deal with that.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I don't have all the answers but if I'm not mistaken there is a free travel (Schengen type) arrangement between the UK and Ireland (who aren't part of Schengen) and so I imagine Scotland would be outside the Schengen and have a similar arrangement to Ireland.

Yeah, we have the common travel area rather than Schengen. Slightly annoying compared to how easily Europeans can travel.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't have all the answers but if I'm not mistaken there is a free travel (Schengen type) arrangement between the UK and Ireland (who aren't part of Schengen unless I'm mistaken) and so I imagine Scotland would be outside the Schengen and have a similar arrangement to Ireland.

Yeah, whole thing sounds messy as hell
Scotland have said they would stay as part of the Common Travel Area if they leave (but it's up to the rest of the UK to accept) and that this will mean they don't have to join Schengen, but it's up to the EU to approve that. EU seem pretty firm on new members joining Schengen, though - but could be similar to their requirement to join the Euro (you can say you're joining it but don't have to give an actual date, so just continue on as normal)
and that's before the customs headaches

FactCheck: would free movement with England continue in an independent Scotland?

The details would be the subject of exit negotiations.

www.channel4.com

 

[General Melchett]

Yeah, whole thing sounds messy as hell
Scotland have said they would stay as part of the Common Travel Area if they leave (but it's up to the rest of the UK to accept) and that this will mean they don't have to join Schengen, but it's up to the EU to approve that. EU seem pretty firm on new members joining Schengen, though - but could be similar to their requirement to join the Euro (you can say you're joining it but don't have to give an actual date, so just continue on as normal)
and that's before the customs headaches

FactCheck: would free movement with England continue in an independent Scotland?

The details would be the subject of exit negotiations.

www.channel4.com

It would be messy as hell and most people will probably end up being sick of seeing it in the news every day - just like Brexit.

The problem is that whichever PM agrees to Indyref2 is putting their job on the line as they'd have to resign if Scots did vote for independence. Easy to see why PMs just keep batting it away.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah, whole thing sounds messy as hell
Scotland have said they would stay as part of the Common Travel Area if they leave (but it's up to the rest of the UK to accept) and that this will mean they don't have to join Schengen, but it's up to the EU to approve that. EU seem pretty firm on new members joining Schengen, though - but could be similar to their requirement to join the Euro (you can say you're joining it but don't have to give an actual date, so just continue on as normal)
and that's before the customs headaches

FactCheck: would free movement with England continue in an independent Scotland?

The details would be the subject of exit negotiations.

www.channel4.com

One of my pet peeves in both Brexit and the Scottish independence situation is people asserting things will happen they don't actually have the power to decide. Scotland doesn't get to decide if free movement to England remains or not (it likely will and should but it requires both parties approval.) They can argue they would want it to stay and would push for it but can't assert it simply as fact. Before the referendum they were asserting they would keep the pound and still have a say in the monetary policy of it, even though it would not be their currency at all (and going back to the hypocrisy where they said the pound was a millstone around the neck of Scotland, only to later assert they would not only keep it but also dictate the policy for it).

The same with the Brexit lot asserting all sorts of things would happen that they didn't actually have the power to do. I wish people would see through this bullshit more. Once side cannot assert something that requires a second party's approval, a party they are likely to be at loggerheads with.

 

[Which Tyler]

I wish people would see through this bullshit more. Once side cannot assert something that requires a second party's approval, a party they are likely to be at loggerheads with.

And that the press would call them out as promises without authority to enact.

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[Gavin]

As posted above. Incredible gotcha question and does emphasis the incorrect use of language around 'illegal immigrant'

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

really sucks Starmer isn't anti-brexit cause I'd love for PMQs just be him asking "How's Brexit working out for ya?" over and over again.

 

[ncurd]

really sucks Starmer isn't anti-brexit cause I'd love for PMQs just be him asking "How's Brexit working out for ya?" over and over again.

He is but its political suicide vest for him to do so. Which just ******* sucks.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

really sucks Starmer isn't anti-brexit cause I'd love for PMQs just be him asking "How's Brexit working out for ya?" over and over again.

He needs to win back the so called Red Wall of seats Labour lost last time, which is why he won't touch it.

All very depressing really.

 

[McTallshort]

He needs to win back the so called Red Wall of seats Labour lost last time, which is why he won't touch it.

All very depressing really.

Let's see what happens if he gets into power