30 Games limit agreement: is it working?

[Big Ewis]

the problem isn't the problem itself. The problem is there are two separate entities, each one with their own wishes, interests and power to insure and preserve. Just like the Palestinian-Israeli issue, the difficulty to solve the actual situation isn't at a high degree, the problem is you have two guys cheating in their own way. It may never be resolved. You need compromise to solve a situation, and reasonable parties on BOTH sides, not even just one which is hard enough to obtain.
The actual talk takes place beyond the fan, as implicated as we'd like to think we are, we can't tell what's happening behind the curtains, under the tables, and in those guys' pants.

All we know are things like we were a Top 16 at a point, and were a Top 14 league with very good international results just some time ago. This Top 14 growing out of its shell is brand new, let's say right after the last WC. The English play lots of games, and their guys actually play more minutes yearly than ours, and they still have great protection rules and fresh, competitive, fit players for internationals and true team unity/chemistry/identity.

So the problem is in their hands. I believe as a fan my input stops here because it would be silly and wasteful to have the pretension I can really say anymore about this as a mere fan. The solutions are in their hands, they know the money, the figures, the powers that be. They know the "ingredients" or see the cards, it's up to them...I can't make a recipe or play a game without knowing the ingredients or seeing the cards.

 

[tituslechmakus]

What makes me laugh in this 30 matches limit is that it is applied to players that are not international anymore, like Michalak ! And newly caped players are not protected !!! Silly ! LNR/FFR again !

 

[FrenchFan]

yes this is another issue. Players who may no longer be involved with the national squad still fall under the Agreement, they are protected yet don't get capped, and their club suffers from it by resting them when they might want to play them.

same story for the newly capped of late (Atonio Kockott Spedding Thomas), should LNR include the number of games they have played before being capped? it should but we're not sure

Widening the group to 74 players recently has only compounded the problem. Some fall under the agreement, others don't but might and others will but really shouldn't

Welcome to the FFR-LNR CIRCUS

This is what the system throws up when you have a turn-coat under stewardship as a national coach

Everyone fit between the age of 12 and 44 may be selected. BE READY

Have your rugby kit handy (remind mamy to put the mouth shield in). Did you clean your boots? bring spare studs

Don't forget to revise La Marseillaise (it starts: Allons zenfants de la patrieeee...) lip synching doesn't count

Saint Philippe may make your Xmas a very very special one......

THE BLUE BANDWAGON MAY / MAY NOT NEED YOU

 

[Big Ewis]

you can say what you want about the LNR and FFR, you can be for, against, in between, etc etc etc....but you can't deny what a fuccking farce it has become in a few years :lol:

 

[FrenchFan]

you can say what you want about the LNR and FFR, you can be for, against, in between, etc etc etc....but you can't deny what a fuccking farce it has become in a few years :lol:

well there's no in-between for me about FFR & LNR. And this has been going on for decades, not a few years. Their record is appalling. Look at the number of anti-FFR posts in French forum comments in the media. This is not just me saying it.

Club rugby is in rude good health and they cannot take much credit as they have largely missed out on the professional boat and the big clubs have largely turned their back on them. This is like stating the obvious!

They are responsible for many of the issues plaguing the game here, the national side is only the tip of the iceberg. Alienating the big clubs like Toulouse like they did with LNR is the most stupid thing they could have done. But many of these issues are going to come back to bite them in the arse, starting with the national side and the financial issues they're facing with the construction of their new stadium.

I think people who are involved at club level like I've been for 18 years and not just watching les Bleus on TV are fully aware of the mafia-like organisation and the utter incompetence we're dealing with. I just hope the general public following rugby would wake up and see it for what it is. But the media here are not helping. The FFR controlled BS they're spewing be it about les Bleus or else is phenomenal.

 

[FrenchFan]

My pleasure. Like Ewis said the word to use is weird. It just seems like unnecessarily complicating a simple matter that has more elegant solutions.

From the outside it must be weird allright. Dysfunctional is probably a more accurate description. FFR-LNR have thrown a major spanner into a fully-functional Top 14 in the name of supposedly "player welfare" blablah. This is raving BS. The 30 game limit is about politics. It's about control and power. FFR are in fact **** scared of losing control of the internationals who are contracted with the clubs, not with them.

 

[smartcooky]

Well we're not done with suprises. Plenty more fun on the way as we get further into the season. I am convinced the 30 game agreement is going to cause more problems than bring solutions.

The other side of the coin is injuries.

You can't just keep flogging players week in week out and expect them to remain injury free. I'm not talking directly about impact injuries here; they can happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere. I'm talking about muscle & ligament strains; ACL, calf, knee, ankle, elbow, hamstrings etc. These are the injuries that can take time to recover. Its not just the number of games they play either, the training also comes into it. The couple of Tasman Makos players I have spoken to about this tell me that they are often more stuffed by the physical demands at training than they are after a tough match.

The whole thing of player conditioning and rest is a balancing act. The more tired and battered the players are, the easier they become injured, but also, if the players don't have enough conditioning or have too little match time then their risk of injury also increases. There is a sweet spot between enough conditioning and too much playing time where the player is least likely to sustain an injury.

To make matters less easy to manage, that sweet spot can vary between individuals depending on their body shape/type and their core tasks in the team. Jerry Collins is a great example of a player with a high-end sweet spot. If he had been allowed , he would quite happily play Super Rugby for the Hurricanes on a Friday night and then turn out for his club Northern United on the Saturday, despite playing at No. 6, one of the toughest roles in a team.

The coaches and managers have a choice, do without a key player for one match every so often or risk losing them for a significant part of the season. Managing that choice is a very difficult task, and not one I would ever like to have the responsibility for.

 

[Big Ewis]

well there's no in-between for me about FFR & LNR. And this has been going on for decades, not a few years. Their record is appalling. Look at the number of anti-FFR posts in French forum comments in the media. This is not just me saying it.

decades, ay ? Say, you're coming out clearer and clearer as it goes. The FFR hasn't been in this state of utter BS for *decades*. I certainly don't know how it happens internally, but the BS isn't even one decade old. Far from it in fact...you seem to be vociferously opposed for other reasons you're not stating to the very concept of the FFR. Please tell me what bs you're referring to that is apparently decades old. What bs did we have under even Bernard Laporte ??...

 

[FrenchFan]

decades, ay ? Say, you're coming out clearer and clearer as it goes. The FFR hasn't been in this state of utter BS for *decades*. I certainly don't know how it happens internally, but the BS isn't even one decade old. Far from it in fact...you seem to be vociferously opposed for other reasons you're not stating to the very concept of the FFR. Please tell me what bs you're referring to that is apparently decades old. What bs did we have under even Bernard Laporte ??...

Have already posted. Don't want repeat (see link to my post below).

They missed the boat when the game went pro. I don't give a **** about these clowns. We didn't need them to win 4 HCup and 11 league ***les. We won't need them again next time :lol:

FFR new stadium
http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...ost-2016-Final?p=686456&viewfull=1#post686456

We need a real effing Federation. Not a parisian clique of incompetent APES.

Have not seen one good article or positive statement in Top 14 about the 30 games limit. Not one.

 

[Big Ewis]

well yes but wait a second, forget today's circus of the bizarre. What you're saying is dense of meaning, you mean to say things went downhill in France from the moment world Rugby went pro ?? We had both a league with strong identities in clubs AND a world beating international side at the same time, Laporte was no joke. We had real attacking, a real game plan, the French scrum and maul, our packs were always relevant and never disjointed etc.., and there was a much healthier relationship between club and country.
It was never an *issue* to select players from clubs like today, or at least you didn't have club managers yelling every week about it.

 

[FrenchFan]

well yes but wait a second, forget today's circus of the bizarre. What you're saying is dense of meaning, you mean to say things went downhill in France from the moment world Rugby went pro ?? We had both a league with strong identities in clubs AND a world beating international side at the same time, Laporte was no joke. We had real attacking, a real game plan, the French scrum and maul, our packs were always relevant and never disjointed etc.., and there was a much healthier relationship between club and country.
It was never an *issue* to select players from clubs like today, or at least you didn't have club managers yelling every week about it.

No the game didn't go downhill here when it went pro. That's not what I said. I said FFR didn't adjust to the game going Pro. They're out of their depth now with the clubs.

Laporte is a great coach. We have the BEST coaches and managers in Europe here. All French.

Noves and Laporte are top of the pile by a long shot :bravo:

 

[smartcooky]

Noves and Laporte are top of the pile by a long shot :bravo:

Noves! This would be the arrogant prick who completely ignored an iRB concussion directive, and endangered the life and the future health of Florian Fritz by demanding that he come back on the field when he was clearly, seriously concussed?

 

[Big Ewis]

No the game didn't go downhill here when it went pro. That's not what I said. I said FFR didn't adjust to the game going Pro. They're out of their depth now with the clubs.

Laporte is a great coach. We have the BEST coaches and managers in Europe here. All French.

Noves and Laporte are top of the pile by a long shot :bravo:

Novès' greatness is unquestioned, but although Toulouse are becoming Toulouse again just now, there was that 2 year gap...what was that ??...Laporte has to be the best coach in the Top 14, and one of the very best in Europe no doubt. I've got my reserve still about Galthié, and even more so about Ibanez, but Urios is very interesting. Azéma and Landreau (Grenoble) come to mind...

 

[FrenchFan]

That 2 year gap is Toulon's time. Nobody else could match them in Europe during that time. Let's see this season...

There is no shortage of coaching talent here. If you take the top 7 teams in the league, there's only one foreign coach with Qesada at SF.

Look at what Ibanez and Etcheto are doing in Bordeaux. Galthié is a work in progress, he needs to win silverware first and not get sidetracked by FFR. I think misplaced ambition might be his weakness...

I am a big fan of Urios and Landreau. I think what Urios has done at Oyo with a small budget and a group of very average players, the mindset, passion and discipline they show. You can't get that with a cheque book.

They should run coaching workshops for les Pieds Nickelés around the country :lol: It's funny to think the crassiest coaches in the country are now in charge of Les Bleus :huh:

For backplay send them to Etcheto. For everything else, send them to Noves. There's no other coach like him in Europe.

 

[tituslechmakus]

The other side of the coin is injuries.

You can't just keep flogging players week in week out and expect them to remain injury free. I'm not talking directly about impact injuries here; they can happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere. I'm talking about muscle & ligament strains; ACL, calf, knee, ankle, elbow, hamstrings etc. These are the injuries that can take time to recover. Its not just the number of games they play either, the training also comes into it. The couple of Tasman Makos players I have spoken to about this tell me that they are often more stuffed by the physical demands at training than they are after a tough match.

The whole thing of player conditioning and rest is a balancing act. The more tired and battered the players are, the easier they become injured, but also, if the players don't have enough conditioning or have too little match time then their risk of injury also increases. There is a sweet spot between enough conditioning and too much playing time where the player is least likely to sustain an injury.

To make matters less easy to manage, that sweet spot can vary between individuals depending on their body shape/type and their core tasks in the team. Jerry Collins is a great example of a player with a high-end sweet spot. If he had been allowed , he would quite happily play Super Rugby for the Hurricanes on a Friday night and then turn out for his club Northern United on the Saturday, despite playing at No. 6, one of the toughest roles in a team.

The coaches and managers have a choice, do without a key player for one match every so often or risk losing them for a significant part of the season. Managing that choice is a very difficult task, and not one I would ever like to have the responsibility for.

We are not arguing about the 30 games limit in fact ! As we all know that what you posted is truth. We are arguing about our federation's incompetence ! They haven't been on the side of a pitch for 30 years and they pretend being the major instance in French rugby !? These guys are renowned here for their ability to organize huge banquets with gallons of after-diner liqueur ! Not for taking clever decisions !

- - - Updated - - -

Noves! This would be the arrogant prick who completely ignored an iRB concussion directive, and endangered the life and the future health of Florian Fritz by demanding that he come back on the field when he was clearly, seriously concussed?

Well that's him ! The 4 times hcup and 11 top 14 ***le ! Someone unexperienced it seems !

He maye have done a mistake with Fritz, but nobody can accuse him of incompetence ! Not like the FFR/LNR !

 

[smartcooky]

We are not arguing about the 30 games limit in fact ! As we all know that what you posted is truth. We are arguing about our federation's incompetence ! They haven't been on the side of a pitch for 30 years and they pretend being the major instance in French rugby !? These guys are renowned here for their ability to organize huge banquets with gallons of after-diner liqueur ! Not for taking clever decisions !

They sound like Will Carling's "57 Old Farts" then?

 

[Big Ewis]

but how quickly things change in pro sports though...looking at Castres being part of the bottom 7 teams budget wise, and seeing them make the playoffs those two years and go on to beat the very best successively on their way to the final, I thought for sure Milhas and Darricarère were really good, really underrated coaches. Darricarère is a constant coach's caricature and a big comedian it turns out, after observing him every weekend. This year Castres have dumped like crazy, and surely the key injuries are a big part of it, but even Kockott and Talès their savior halfbacks haven't been able to produce their best Rugby over there, and those key injuries can't explain everything.

Similar to Novès whose formulas were strictly untouchable for more than a decade and then 2013 and 2014 happen, seeing as it's not just the general level of Top 14 clubs raising that is responsible for that frightening drop of results both on paper and on the field. All of a sudden things pick up near miraculously in the Haute-Garonne, and Novès' credibility almost entirely restored.
Whatever works Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday may not work on Saturday but work again on Sunday Monday...whatever works great with Team A and B and C and D may not work for Team E. There are no hard rules, and things can crumble all so fast.

Right now my two guys (other than the obvious good ones who've proven aplenty: Guy New, Bernard Thedoor..) are Landreau and Urios. Grenoble and Oyonnax, two teams with a great 10, really good talent in spurts on those xv's and a very nice balance of young home-bred less prestigious and finer talents (Hansell-Pune, Thian, Figuerola, Ma'afu for Oyo and Ratini, Grice...for Grenoble). A fine mix, and sometimes spectacular results.

 

[FrenchFan]

Novès' greatness is unquestioned, but although Toulouse are becoming Toulouse again just now, there was that 2 year gap...what was that ??....

Don't forget we have won 3 ***les in last 5 years (HCup 2010, Top 14 in 2011 & 2012) that's still more than most

- - - Updated - - -

oops according to Rugbyrama no less than 14 internationals are already in the red vs the 30 game limit, surprise surprise

Dusautoir who was on 8 games last time i made the same point is now on 14, Le Roux 15 and we're not even half way thru the season, there's 4 more rounds of T14+ 3 rounds before 6N

how do same players stay within the limit I don't know...

if Dusautoir were to play the 5 games in 6N (as no doubt the staff expects him to) + 4 remaining games in EC,that would bring his total to 23 games and he could only play another 7 in Top 14 out of the 15 remaining games left in the regular season (play-offs not included) :huh:

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Les-joueurs-a-mettre-au-repos/517406

Bouscatel sums up the stupidity of the 30 game limit better than I would: "One wonders about the purpose of this rule other than put the clubs in a difficult situation and distort competition in Top 14"
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-14/2014-2015/top-14-jean-rene-bouscatel-le-***re-toujours-un-objectif-pour-toulouse_sto4491468/story.shtml

 

[tituslechmakus]

They sound like Will Carling's "57 Old Farts" then?

Well, I think "old farts" is not strong enough to define our FFR/LNR ! At the time Carling described them, rugby was becomming professional ... So it is understandable to have old guys being a bit late with their time. On our side, we still have those same old ***** but with 20 years of professional rugby ! And they act exactly the same as the 57 old farts ! Do you get how deep the crisis is in our rugby ?

 

[FrenchFan]

Noves! This would be the arrogant prick who completely ignored an iRB concussion directive, and endangered the life and the future health of Florian Fritz by demanding that he come back on the field when he was clearly, seriously concussed?

For the record, Noves has been cleared of any wrong doing by the enquiry following the Fritz incident.

But this is not the subject of this thread.

Your previous post on players welfare show you have completely missed the point about the 30 game limit which does not address player welfare issues in Top 14. In theory it should, in practice it doesn't. It's French rugby politics. We don't expect you to understand.

Do not hijack our threads with your blatant anti NH rugby views and irrelevant blather.