[2023 Six Nations] Scotland Squad

[AlRums]

Scotland are just such a joke these days. Is he really better than their other options when Scotland's integrity is just being washed away with every squad they select.

Remind me, how many Calcutta Cups have England won in the last five years?

 

[AlRums]

The other fly halves (Hastings and Thompson) are injured. Kinghorn was an experiment and isn't an international class 10. Healy is young, has a Scottish grandparent mother and has a good opportunity to take over as the starting 10 from Russell once he retires. He wants to play test rugby as far as I'm aware Ireland didn't pick him for their emerging talent squad or give him any indication he was in their plans. I don't see what all the fuss is about - not like he's a project signing plucked from South Africa. Good move for Healy and Scotland IMO as he'll likely feature in the 6N and this year's RWC.

There, corrected that for you

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

the welsh and Scottish populations are stagnating. From my trusted source Wikipedia the amount of Scots born in Scotland has decreased from the last census and their slight bump in population is mainly immigrants. They have to rely on those with solid links to the country or they'll an incredibly small pool in 20 years.

 

[Groundhog]

Have any of the salty English people in this thread considered that there's a more nuanced take to this and that people want to play for Scotland because England smelly poopy stinkheads?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Remind me, how many Calcutta Cups have England won in the last five years?

England have been pants due to Eddie the wonder kid jones since the wc. Beating that England team wasn't really something to boast about.

Just like calling up an old English winger to the Scotland squad.

No salt from me about him changing colours, I'd be equally frustrated if England did the same and very much dislike players who are turncoats from one country to another.

 

[Which Tyler]

McConnochie in camp day one.

"I was in a team that got got to a world cup final, now who wants to f@#king stroke me" Rest of squad "ooooooh".

If it helps, he's also got an olympic silver medal

 

[retired9]

Listen, in Scotland we are used to players from different countries coming in to play for us, its gone on for decades big wow. As fans we don't really care per se, if you want to play for this country and are good enough to do so then we're ok with it.

I can understand in a country 10 times the population it being a bit of a problem when there really is enough home grown players, yet England have hada few different accents in there over the years as well.

It's not like there are dozens of "home grown" stars are being kept out, and actually, I would argue that some of the overseas players of origin have inspired the Russels, Hoggs, Fagersons, Darge types to be better and push to get in the squad.

I say it every year, 3rd place is the minimum target for Scotland, probably going to be tricky now there is a Gatland Wales and Borthwicks England are a bit of an unknown - probably having the CC match first is a good thing but I do not expect it to be easy. Ireland will likely be a stretch for us, France we at least have some recent positive form against so maybe a bit less of a monkey on the back type, although I don't expect a miracle.

Scotland finally got some continuity in the Autumn with selction and I think there is a sound framework which can be tweaked here and there to produce decent showings and victories.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Listen, in Scotland we are used to players from different countries coming in to play for us, its gone on for decades big wow. As fans we don't really care per se, if you want to play for this country and are good enough to do so then we're ok with it.

I can understand in a country 10 times the population it being a bit of a problem when there really is enough home grown players, yet England have hada few different accents in there over the years as well.

It's not like there are dozens of "home grown" stars are being kept out, and actually, I would argue that some of the overseas players of origin have inspired the Russels, Hoggs, Fagersons, Darge types to be better and push to get in the squad.

I say it every year, 3rd place is the minimum target for Scotland, probably going to be tricky now there is a Gatland Wales and Borthwicks England are a bit of an unknown - probably having the CC match first is a good thing but I do not expect it to be easy. Ireland will likely be a stretch for us, France we at least have some recent positive form against so maybe a bit less of a monkey on the back type, although I don't expect a miracle.

Scotland finally got some continuity in the Autumn with selction and I think there is a sound framework which can be tweaked here and there to produce decent showings and victories.

I mean each to their own but I know plenty of Scottish fans annoyed at it.

 

[retired9]

I mean each to their own but I know plenty of Scottish fans annoyed at it.

Oh I know there are, but I would love to know what they would do differently assuming they wish the national team to maintain a degree of competitiveness. 2 pro teams ain't going to yield a field of home grown superstars.

There is never a lack of cheers at Murrayfield for Nel, Schoeman (who has his own crowd moniker), VDM and even Watson who couldn't have a more Scottish sounding name without a Mc in it yet has a southern accent.

Comparably sized nations (Wales, Ireland, NZ) have a completely different setup and the game is much more broadly marketed. Rugby in Scotland really is still a bit of an oddball at times, a lot of the public just don't get it.

 

[Groundhog]

Lots of talk now about John Cooney being called up at some stage for Scotland as he can switch his allegiance on February 23..... Have to say this one does feel pretty desperate.

 

[retired9]

Lots of talk now about John Cooney being called up at some stage for Scotland as he can switch his allegiance on February 23..... Have to say this one does feel pretty desperate.

Seems a bit strange when we have 4 great SH's already in the melting pot, Horne and White are electric IMO although Price is a great all rounder.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Seems a bit strange when we have 4 great SH's already in the melting pot, Horne and White are electric IMO although Price is a great all rounder.

Got to balance out the Englishness, can't have Price, White and Vellacot all wearing white underneath their jersey, got to balance it out with a bit of green too!

 

[retired9]

Got to balance out the Englishness, can't have Price, White and Vellacot all wearing white underneath their jersey, got to balance it out with a bit of green too!

Sshhh thats why Scotland have been doing better recently, more eeeeeengleesh

 

[Reiser99]

Oh I know there are, but I would love to know what they would do differently assuming they wish the national team to maintain a degree of competitiveness. 2 pro teams ain't going to yield a field of home grown superstars.

There is never a lack of cheers at Murrayfield for Nel, Schoeman (who has his own crowd moniker), VDM and even Watson who couldn't have a more Scottish sounding name without a Mc in it yet has a southern accent.

Comparably sized nations (Wales, Ireland, NZ) have a completely different setup and the game is much more broadly marketed. Rugby in Scotland really is still a bit of an oddball at times, a lot of the public just don't get it.

I have two issues with Scotland's approach.

First, I feel they have prioritised finding and recruiting foreign born eligible players over grass roots rugby and developing homegrown players. They are looking for a quick fix rather than trying to improve the system.

Second, is that they are leading a race to the bottom, trying to cap young players who aren't ready for international rugby just to try and increase their talent pool, which is leading to other countries capping younger to try and tie them down. It's wrong and potentially harmful to younger players.

 

[retired9]

I have two issues with Scotland's approach.

First, I feel they have prioritised finding and recruiting foreign born eligible players over grass roots rugby and developing homegrown players. They are looking for a quick fix rather than trying to improve the system.

Second, is that they are leading a race to the bottom, trying to cap young players who aren't ready for international rugby just to try and increase their talent pool, which is leading to other countries capping younger to try and tie them down. It's wrong and potentially harmful to younger players.

It's a fair assessment, I think the issue is the SRU are so full of overpaid seat fillers there is a lot of money that could be growing the game with a view to getting more pro teams. If we could produce enough players to justify a new Borders pro side as well as a Northern one that would be brilliant. In order to do that we need successfull national sides (Mens, Womens, even League) to generate the interest.

 

[TSPopinjay]

the welsh and Scottish populations are stagnating. From my trusted source Wikipedia the amount of Scots born in Scotland has decreased from the last census and their slight bump in population is mainly immigrants. They have to rely on those with solid links to the country or they'll an incredibly small pool in 20 years.

We already have an incredibly small pool. England has more registered referees than Scotland has players; how on earth are we supposed to be competitive without tapping into our diaspora?

I'm pretty sure I am next in line for a call up at 10.

 

[Groundhog]

Seems a bit strange when we have 4 great SH's already in the melting pot, Horne and White are electric IMO although Price is a great all rounder.

Yeah, like Healy I get he's young, promising and a project for the future. Cooney though is 32 and in the process of losing his jersey at Ulster.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Oh I know there are, but I would love to know what they would do differently assuming they wish the national team to maintain a degree of competitiveness. 2 pro teams ain't going to yield a field of home grown superstars.

What would I do differently?

Invest in domestic youth development to reverse record low levels of domestic playing numbers.

Avoid having 1/3 of your official u16 sides based in another country while players in 4 cities north of the central belt have no realistic pathway to join an official Scottish youth side without relocating.

Related to above, get a Super 6 side based north of the central belt as the number 1 priority to give a pathway to players from half of Scotlands geographic territory and half of its 8 cities.

Root out the culture of elitism that means if you didn't go to the right school your chances of accessing decent quality training and progressing in the sport are extremely impaired.

Replicate what rugby nations with a similar population like Georgia, Wales, NZ, Ireland do. Particularly Ireland & Georgia who historically didn't have anything like the same level of public interest and participation in the sport but have completely overtaken Scotland in domestic player development.

Stop with the factually incorrect defeatism about Scotland being "too small" to compete (see above). Scotland is in absolutely no way more disadvantaged than Georgia but is routinely far behind them at u20s.

Stop picking journeymen with caps for foreign teams over reasonable domestic talent, thereby disincentivising and demotivating young domestic professionals from making the sacrifices that are often required to be a professional player. At least the Wallaby Dempsy has some years ahead of him. McConnachie and Cooney are over the hill and simply denying a Scotsman their decades long dream of wearing a Scotland shirt at a RWC.

Stop selecting more foreign developed players than the rest of the entire Tier1 rugby world combined (now a factually accurate statement).

Stop failing at pretty much every metric except for revenue generation and domestic coach development (Blair & Townsend).

I think the above about covers it without going into too much tedious detail.

I mean, you are amongst like minded folk in this thread and it appears myself and DSLD are in a minority. But personally I hope the SQ Barbarians get humped so badly at this 6N that the diabolical SRU has to change course and emphasise domestic youth development. Picking up rejects from other nations is a recipe for certain failure in the medium to long term. Almost by definition it ensures failure.

To turn it around. What explanation is there for Scotland being overtaken badly by Ireland, Georgia and Wales since the 1990s in terms of producing domestic talent other than consistently abject mismanagement of the domestic game by the SRU?

To be more on topic. I think this squad selection has a chance at finishing 4th. If Finn goes down injured or has another mental walkabout or apparent conflict with Townsend then the SRU has a chance of the wooden spoon it so richly deserves.

 

[retired9]

What would I do differently?

Invest in domestic youth development to reverse record low levels of domestic playing numbers.

Avoid having 1/3 of your official u16 sides based in another country while players in 4 cities north of the central belt have no realistic pathway to join an official Scottish youth side without relocating.

Related to above, get a Super 6 side based north of the central belt as the number 1 priority to give a pathway to players from half of Scotlands geographic territory and half of its 8 cities.

Root out the culture of elitism that means if you didn't go to the right school your chances of accessing decent quality training and progressing in the sport are extremely impaired.

Replicate what rugby nations with a similar population like Georgia, Wales, NZ, Ireland do. Particularly Ireland & Georgia who historically didn't have anything like the same level of public interest and participation in the sport but have completely overtaken Scotland in domestic player development.

Stop with the factually incorrect defeatism about Scotland being "too small" to compete (see above). Scotland is in absolutely no way more disadvantaged than Georgia but is routinely far behind them at u20s.

Stop picking journeymen with caps for foreign teams over reasonable domestic talent, thereby disincentivising and demotivating young domestic professionals from making the sacrifices that are often required to be a professional player. At least the Wallaby Dempsy has some years ahead of him. McConnachie and Cooney are over the hill and simply denying a Scotsman their decades long dream of wearing a Scotland shirt at a RWC.

Stop selecting more foreign developed players than the rest of the entire Tier1 rugby world combined (now a factually accurate statement).

Stop failing at pretty much every metric except for revenue generation and domestic coach development (Blair & Townsend).

I think the above about covers it without going into too much tedious detail.

I mean, you are amongst like minded folk in this thread and it appears myself and DSLD are in a minority. But personally I hope the SQ Barbarians get humped so badly at this 6N that the diabolical SRU has to change course and emphasise domestic youth development. Picking up rejects from other nations is a recipe for certain failure in the medium to long term. Almost by definition it ensures failure.

To turn it around. What explanation is there for Scotland being overtaken badly by Ireland, Georgia and Wales since the 1990s in terms of producing domestic talent other than consistently abject mismanagement of the domestic game by the SRU?

To be more on topic. I think this squad selection has a chance at finishing 4th. If Finn goes down injured or has another mental walkabout or apparent conflict with Townsend then the SRU has a chance of the wooden spoon it so richly deserves.

I mean, I don't disagree with what you are saying. My point was that the SRU have been doing this for decades, more interested in spending money in the hospitality suites and boardrooms than growing the game. If we consider that as unchanging for a moment, can a coach be blamed for trying to make his team win by picking from all the players available to him?

Ireland and Wales (don't know about Georgia) have 4 pro teams, one way or another that has to change in Scotland if we want to increase the talent pool of homegrown players. I never said Scotland was "too small", the oppurtunity for players to come up through a system is what is lacking.

 

[General Melchett]

I mean, I don't disagree with what you are saying. My point was that the SRU have been doing this for decades, more interested in spending money in the hospitality suites and boardrooms than growing the game. If we consider that as unchanging for a moment, can a coach be blamed for trying to make his team win by picking from all the players available to him?

Ireland and Wales (don't know about Georgia) have 4 pro teams, one way or another that has to change in Scotland if we want to increase the talent pool of homegrown players. I never said Scotland was "too small", the oppurtunity for players to come up through a system is what is lacking.

Another thing that many people tend to overlook is that besides only having 2 pro teams, Scottish rugby can't compete on the salary front and almost all the exiles (and there are many of them) have to go back and play for their clubs in England and France on 6N rest weekends while the other nations (with the exception of the 2-3 Welsh exiles) enjoy having all their players in camp and can rest and prepare them properly for the next game. That's a pretty significant disadvantage as players could come back to camp knackered or injured and given the lack of growing the game at SRU board level I don't blame Townsend for using the rules to increase the playing pool.