[2021 Six Nations] Ireland v England (20/03/2021)

[ncurd]

He'll also know that Manu will play if fit (Jones First Law of Favourites)

I mean I struggle to think why this a favourites thing, Manu when fit isn't the best center we have by miles.

 

[Which Tyler]

This is international rugby, not colts.
You don't get to play just because you're in the wider squad.

 

[MikeTheNative]

If you never actually give them a chance then how do you know they can play at this level?

 

[Crash Hamster]

This is international rugby, not colts.
You don't get to play just because you're in the wider squad.

Don't agree in this instance.

We're told that it will be a smaller squad, covid protocols etc and that Odogwu is the reserve outside centre. If Jones had wanted Marchant in the squad and not Odogwu, why didn't he pick Marchant and not Odogwu? Bear in mind that he's shown complete loyalty to non-passing, non-tackling, non-catching non-outside centre Daly, so why does Odogwu not command equal loyalty? If he was good enough to pick in a relatively tiny squad as the reserve OC at the start of the tournament, how much worse than Daly would he have had to have been to not be selected at 13?

No-one seems to be suggesting that Odogwu is injured.

If Jones really didn't want him in the squad, why has he not sent him back to Wasps to play at 13?

What message does the above send to Odogwu, other than 'polish your Italian passport'?

What must other members of the team think? Daly must be thinking 'Uncle Eddie will always give me a game no matter how useless I am. Admittedly I'll be out of position again, but I must be a rugby genius if I can be selected for my country in two positions which I don't really play.' Other players must be thinking 'Well this is a clique.'

It's awful, awful man management. Quite indefensible in my view.

 

[Which Tyler]

So you genuinely think that a squad of 28 rather than 32 means that everyone should play?
And you genuinely think that a 50-cap international and mainstay of the team has MORE to prove than an uncapped novice?

I'm really glad some of more hyperbolic posters aren't selectors.

 

[ncurd]

So you genuinely think that a squad of 28 rather than 32 means that everyone should play?
And you genuinely think that a 50-cap international and mainstay of the team has MORE to prove than an uncapped novice?

I'm really glad some of more hyperbolic posters aren't selectors.

I wouldn't play Daly either at 13 (probably am a hyperbolic poster), but then I'd play Lawrence who does appear to be completely shafted and has a couple of caps.

But that's only Daly's performances at fullback and I don't know why he automatically get in on center based on those.

 

[Jakedood]

I wouldn't play Daly either at 13 (probably am a hyperbolic poster), but then I'd play Lawrence who does appear to be completely shafted and has a couple of caps.

But that's only Daly's performances at fullback and I don't know why he automatically get in on center based on those.

If you look at England in Attack, it wont be a huge difference, in that The full back regularly attacks between Wing and OC anyway, that would be his channel
It;s less about positions for EJ and more about the skills of those he has on the pitch
I think its been mentioned a few times, but EJ is notorious for saying about training at a higher intensity than matches, so when matches come around it's easier. This will be a whole new experience for Odogwu, and Id guess he's learning a lot from it, potentially more than playing for Wasps against teams who are missing their best players in international squad (I know in Pro14 this is the time of year where barr leinster, its a bit of a tossup on who can beat who)
If he's in 3 camps like this and still overlooked, then yeah maybe thats an issue, but 8 weeks or so of training camp with the best players in England is pretty cool, and he's getting 90k to be there. I'd even say the money he's getting might persuade him to stick with the chance to play for England
Lawrence I can understand more so, would have liked to see him this game, but EJ likes the left footed kicking option in there, Daly did look at least decent in his 20 minute cameo (though not advocating this means automatic spot) He'll get his chance though, but I've a feeling EJ post Tuilagi will be thinking more along the lines of a big carrier on the wing rather than in the centres, especially as he regularly brings the wingers in field as options. We'll see though, rugby can change in an instant with a few injuries

 

[Which Tyler]

I wouldn't play Daly either at 13 (probably am a hyperbolic poster), but then I'd play Lawrence who does appear to be completely shafted and has a couple of caps.

But that's only Daly's performances at fullback and I don't know why he automatically get in on center based on those.

I would agree with you - but I wouldn't claim that it's a terrible decision, or that having Odogwu in camp but not playing is the worst decision any coach has ever made etc etc...

As for Daly at centre - isn't that where he plays almost all of his club rugby? (unlike wing or full back, where he's usually played for England) - it's not like it's a completely outrageous selection.


The Odogwu thing is reminiscent of Orlando Bailey for Bath - just because some of the best FHs to ever play the game were playing club level at his age doesn't mean that Hooper has no man-management skills and is deliberately ruining Bailey's career before it's even started, and no-one could blame Bailey for deserting the club if he isn't capped THIS WEEK!
Odogwu is a bright young thing who is still learning his trade at club level, and isn't really a nailed-on starter there. He's been brought into the England squad to fast-track his development. None of which means that he should be starting right now (see the uproar in precisely the opposite direction when people thought George Martin was destined to start this weekend).

He's being looked at. If the people who are looking at him think it's too early for him; then they're probably right. It's certainly not an example of bad man management.

 

[Crash Hamster]

So you genuinely think that a squad of 28 rather than 32 means that everyone should play?
And you genuinely think that a 50-cap international and mainstay of the team has MORE to prove than an uncapped novice?

I'm really glad some of more hyperbolic posters aren't selectors.

If you'd read my post again, you'd clearly see I didn't say what you're suggesting. Answer me one question: if Jones wanted Marchant on the bench v Ireland in preference to Odogwu, why isn't Marchant in the 28 and Odogwu in the shadow squad?

If Daly had worn the 13 jersey for England 50 times you'd have a point about caps, but he's not much more of an OC than Odogwu. If Jones thought Daly was a good OC, he'd own the 13 jersey by now.

SO maybe the problem is that Jones isn't capable of thinking things through (If Slade is injured, I'm picking Daly at 13 and I want Marchant on the bench; that means I want Marchant in the squad) or he's an awful selector and not capable of picking the best reserve 13 (Odogwu is the second best 13, I'll announce he's selected as such, no I've changed my mind on limited evidence, he's not getting capped, Daly's the second best 13 based on... er...)

No-one has said Odogwu's injured. Daly hasn't played 13, Marchant hasn't been in the squad at all. Both are preferred.

I stand by my contention that there is no explanation for this selection that isn't a real slight on Odogwu.

 

[Which Tyler]

If you'd read my post again, you'd clearly see I didn't say what you're suggesting. Answer me one question: if Jones wanted Marchant on the bench v Ireland in preference to Odogwu, why isn't Marchant in the 28 and Odogwu in the shadow squad?

Because the squad was named 10 weeks ago before Eddie had even said "hello" to Odogwu.
At that point, he didn't want either player at 13

 

[Jakedood]

If you'd read my post again, you'd clearly see I didn't say what you're suggesting. Answer me one question: if Jones wanted Marchant on the bench v Ireland in preference to Odogwu, why isn't Marchant in the 28 and Odogwu in the shadow squad?

I think I may have a potential reason above? Obviously no one knows for sure, but there you go. Who knows, EJ may even have said before to Odogwu that he's gonna show him what the international environment demands, but he's unlikely to get a game?

 

[Crash Hamster]

If Jones was prepared to gamble on Odogwu and lose, then what is it about Smith, Simmonds and Simmonds (for example) that means that they aren't worth a place in the squad? If Jones has seen him and doesn't rate him, why did he pick him in the first place? He was in the proper squad, not as an apprentice player. If he was awful from day 1 and showed no sign of improvement, it questions Jones' judgement as a selector. If he hasn't quite developed as expected, what makes Jones think Marchant would be any better, when Marchant hasn't been in the squad?

And as for Daly, it's obviously a gamble. He's not playing so well in general that he's guaranteed a place in the XV and he's not played 13 since... (I genuinely don't know, sometime last season maybe..?) He's not played 13 at international level for what, 4-5 years? There are planty of positons where experimaentation would be welcome, but I'm not sure this is one of them.

What happened to 'The System'? Ids Daly a like-for-like replacement for Slade? really..?

 

[Jakedood]

If Jones was prepared to gamble on Odogwu and lose, then what is it about Smith, Simmonds and Simmonds (for example) that means that they aren't worth a place in the squad? If Jones has seen him and doesn't rate him, why did he pick him in the first place? He was in the proper squad, not as an apprentice player. If he was awful from day 1 and showed no sign of improvement, it questions Jones' judgement as a selector. If he hasn't quite developed as expected, what makes Jones think Marchant would be any better, when Marchant hasn't been in the squad?

And as for Daly, it's obviously a gamble. He's not playing so well in general that he's guaranteed a place in the XV and he's not played 13 since... (I genuinely don't know, sometime last season maybe..?) He's not played 13 at international level for what, 4-5 years? There are planty of positons where experimaentation would be welcome, but I'm not sure this is one of them.

What happened to 'The System'? Ids Daly a like-for-like replacement for Slade? really..?

I'd say he's as close as you'll get re the left footed kicking option
It is a gamble, but not an extreme one, or completely ridiculous
Re Smith and Simmonds, I think it's clear Jones sees Farrell and Ford as the two out halves he's taking to the world cup. I think Ford is just classy, my personal opinion, so they may have a tough time breaking in save for injury in next two years. Sam simmonds, well he's more of a flanker than an 8 in EJ system (someone shared a wibble rugby piece on this) and even then more of a 7 than a 6 due to the 6 in EJ often doing a lot of unseen work. Is he replacing Curry or Underhill, I'd argue no. I think he looks a class player, but the piece also highlighted situations to demonstrate just how useful Billy is at freeing space for others, and also dominating the gain line himself. So yes, EJ doesnt think they should be in his squad, he wont play them so why have them in? Its not saying they're not good players, they are. Clearly. But they dont fit what he's looking for, and he feels he at least has the outhalf spots covered well. Might make extended squads however in case of an injury to Ford/Farrell, as a third choice outhalf

 

[big ginger 8]

No sign of the team yet?

Wonder who's fitness is in question.

 

[Jakedood]

No sign of the team yet?

Wonder who's fitness is in question.

Nice timing aha

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think all the failings of last year are going to get exposed big time. No 13 on the pitch, Hume should look for a big paycheck somewhere if he's not getting a sniff. Slow halfbacks who aren't going to threaten fringes. Still only one real attacking threat in the back three.

Happy enough with the pack given the injury constraints though.

Eng by 9ish

 

[Jakedood]

I think all the failings of last year are going to get exposed big time. No 13 on the pitch, Hume should look for a big paycheck somewhere if he's not getting a sniff. Slow halfbacks who aren't going to threaten fringes. Still only one real attacking threat in the back three.

Happy enough with the pack given the injury constraints though.

Eng by 9ish

Maybe see him in summer/autumn squads, it is his first real year of consistent pro rugby, but i think he'll get there eventually. He's certainly looking better and better game by game
The pack looks good, the back row especially given the injuries, I like it
Stockdale to score 7 tries and equal his record?

 

[big ginger 8]

I'll take that after what I was expecting.

Happy with that backrow given Connors is out as well. Kilcoyne's carrying will be important but I worry about his scrimmaging against Sinckler with Raynal reffing.

Stockdale in is a no brainer.

Murray far from ideal. If we're going with a box kicking strategy he is the better option but I hope he can provide some threat around the fringes so our centres don't get murdered. Though with no Underhill, Lawes or Tuilagi that is less likely.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Balance of that team is quite a bit difference from last week, especially the back row. I don't think I would be confident with that 9/10 combo on the field and the bench!

 

[big ginger 8]

I think all the failings of last year are going to get exposed big time. No 13 on the pitch, Hume should look for a big paycheck somewhere if he's not getting a sniff. Slow halfbacks who aren't going to threaten fringes. Still only one real attacking threat in the back three.

Happy enough with the pack given the injury constraints though.

Eng by 9ish

Well that's certainly a take on Hume.

He's 22 and only established himself as a starter in the last year. He wasn't in the squad so this is hardly a surprise to you. He also has some clear defensive issues. I had him in my squad for this tournament but it's hardly something to be getting really upset about. He's arguably the less talented centre playing for Ullster tomorrow.