[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] Wales vs Italy (05/12/20)

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Mikey12]

Anyone anticipating an exciting match?

I don't want much for Christmas or this match, some decent phase play, some offloading in the tackle area, good clean outs at the ruck and a reduction in the penalty count. Maybe a little less aimless kicking and some youngsters blooded. What's the chances?

 

[Reiser99]

Wales need a positive performance. They've lost convincingly to England and Ireland and didn't look great against Georgia. They really need to looking coordinated and organised, especially in attack.

Italy should be smelling blood here and know they can take a scalp. Wales are likely to be a bit more fragile mentally and if Italy get an early score they could really put them under pressure.

 

[Major Foe-Parr]

If Wales perform like they did against England, it could still go either way. I think Italy have a win in them.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

If Wales perform like they did against England, it could still go either way. I think Italy have a win in them.

Not for a long, long time they haven't, and I sincerely doubt they do much on Saturday.

What I don't get though is why Pivac is making so many changes game-to-game. I don't see how he expects to get any flow and continuity into the team. I was hopeful he would bring some Welsh rugby back to Welsh rugby, but so far he seems a bit lost...

 

[Mikey12]

You have to give him time to find his starting 15. Seeing them in training is different to actual game time. I'm happy he's given a lot of players a run out, he wants to play the scarlets way I think. Which is a deeper back line but, as yet the pack have made too many errors. Penalties at the scrum, over throwing the line out, poor clearing around the ruck has really hampered any open flowing rugby. It will come he just needs some time to choose the players right for his game plan. When better to do it than during an autumn test series which is pretty meaningless.

 

[Reiser99]

You have to give him time to find his starting 15. Seeing them in training is different to actual game time. I'm happy he's given a lot of players a run out, he wants to play the scarlets way I think. Which is a deeper back line but, as yet the pack have made too many errors. Penalties at the scrum, over throwing the line out, poor clearing around the ruck has really hampered any open flowing rugby. It will come he just needs some time to choose the players right for his game plan. When better to do it than during an autumn test series which is pretty meaningless.

I guess that is the key question. Is he trying to find his starting 15, who will adapt to his game plan or does he know who he wants and is still waiting for them to adapt to his game plan.

If it's the former then tbh he needs to be more ambitious with his selections. AWJ is past it (though some Welsh fans may still disagree) and he's not going to be be there in 2023. North has sustained multiple head injuries and is a shadow of the the player he was, picking him at centre tells you nothing really.

If it's the latter then there is an argument for making less changes as Wales are clearly struggling with Pivac's game plan and need as much game time as possible to get to grips with it.

Tbh it's somewhere in the middle, but I feel that he's maybe avoiding a few tough decisions that should have already happened.

 

[BPM]

I agree with most of that. Tompkins was Wales' find of the 6N but is now being messed around a bit. He and Williams have the potential to be a good pairing given a bit of time together. Playing North at 13 against Italy really serves no decent purpose IMO.

Losing Ken Owens to injury has really underlined the importance of succession planning. Elias and Dee looked fine coming off the bench after 60mins but have looked poor as starters. Finding that out now, isn't the worst thing in the world as Owens will not be around for 2023. I'm pleased Parry is getting a start as I think he might actually be the best bet.

As for AWJ, the Owens scenario is quite a good warning shot. If Wales don't properly blood his successor, they're likely to have a similar situation at lock to what they've got now at hooker.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Losing Ken Owens to injury has really underlined the importance of succession planning. Elias and Dee looked fine coming off the bench after 60mins but have looked poor as starters.

I do wonder if that's the problem... is it just that Wales haven't got the cattle? Pun aside, it's a genuine question. When I think back to the years that made Gatland's name as Wales coach, basically 2011-13, the team had some very good players. Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones were both excellent scrummagers and Jenkins was a menace at the breakdown, Luke Charteris was a dynamic do-everything lock, Faletau was an exciting ball carrier and Warburton, while inconsistent, had games where he was an unstoppable jackal. Then they had the prototypical crashball 12 in Jamie Roberts, and backs capable of the odd moment of magic in Jonathan Davies, George North and Shane Williams, plus the world's best placekicker in Leigh Halfpenny. Around those guys were solid types like AWJ, Dan Lydiate and Mike Phillips. But now when I look at Wales' player pool, there's no comparison. The front 5 looks especially weak in terms of talent, and outside Liam Williams, there's no-one in the backs to worry the opposition. There are lots of players we're told have potential, but we have yet to see it realised, and a number of old heads who are long past their best.

I just wonder if the reason Pivac is chopping and changing is because he can't find any players that are actually good enough.

 

[Mikey12]

We don't have strength in depth we are one 20th of the population of England, 1/2 the population of Ireland and 67% of the pop. of Scotland. We should be the weakest home nation by those stats. We are missing a lot of players that have either used COVID to get much needed surgery or who are injured. As a result our lack of strength in depth is showing. I commend the management for giving young players like Botham, Sheedy, LRZ and quite a few others a fair crack. They are by no means the finished article but, this autumn has been a big step up for them and they will improve no end over the next 18-24 months. For a change we are using the WC cycle to grow and develop the next crop which is good if they kick on and take that intensity back to their regional and club game.
We've been lacking mainly with the pace of international rugby. We've been slow to rucks, and to the clear out so defences have had time to reset. Our line out has been wayward, I don't think the scrum was anywhere near as bad as the penalty count would suggest from last week, but it had been poor in previous weeks so I understand the refs decisions. Today will be a different story we should be too strong for Italy not by a huge margin but enough to win. I hope Wales play more with ball in hand but, only in their half territory is more important than possession in today's game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Even crowdless, playing in a club stadium just makes these Wales home games feel like u20s games

 

[Reiser99]

Knock on because two players were not on the same wave length. Good intent though from Italy.

 

[Reiser99]

WTF Canna? Just pass is properly.

 

[Reiser99]

Great line by Tipuric, but horrible defending by Italy.

 

[Reiser99]

Urgh... AWJ is going to have one good day against a crap Italian lineout and he'll suddenly be a god in the lineout again.

 

[Gavin]

How is the clear out by Liam Williams, where he connects with the head of Canna, not a penalty?

 

[Jimbo]

How is the clear out by Liam Williams, where he connects with the head of Canna, not a penalty?

I wondered that as well

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wales not even pretending to release before going for the ball - just gripping on in the tackle and staying there

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

It's that time when I dare to dream italy could get a result every game but they inevitably disappoint me...

 

[Reiser99]

Wonderful try. Italy fighting back.