[2019 Six Nations] Ireland vs France (10/03/2019)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Beirne was "sore" all week apparently.

@MikeTheNative , there's little point comparing this side to the team that played Italy. There's 7 changes to the team that played Italy. The team that played Italy was only slightly more first choice then what Wales played against them.

At the time it was
1. 2nd choice
2. 2nd
3. 1st
4. 5th
5. 6th
6. 1st
7. 2nd/3rd
8. 3rd
9. 1st
10. 1st
11. 1st
12. 2nd
13. 2nd/3rd
14. 1st
15. 1st

And the centres were mangled early in the game with Farrell and Earls playing positions I hope they never play again in green, and Conway who's in a fight to make the WC squad. I've seen a few posts suggesting it was first choice in the media and other sites, far from it in reality.

Murr and Sexton were fairly gash though.

 

[MikeTheNative]

They also lost to England at home then had a bit of rusty performance against Scotland although did grind out the win. I don't think they will play as badly as they did against Italy but I was just saying that if they do then they probably will not get away with it this time.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm sure calls like Beirne factored in 6 day turn around too. Would expect Porter as 18 too vs Wales. Conan there too due to CJ just back

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'm sure calls like Beirne factored in 6 day turn around too. Would expect Porter as 18 too vs Wales. Conan there too due to CJ just back

Beirne is unlucky but Dillanne is in form the injury swung it. Conan is the right call with CJ just back. Don't see what Ryan beings at all, but messing around with the team a bit isn't a bad thing with the ***le gone.

 

[munstermuffin]

Beirne is unlucky but Dillanne is in form the injury swung it. Conan is the right call with CJ just back. Don't see what Ryan beings at all, but messing around with the team a bit isn't a bad thing with the ***le gone.

Ryan is on better form and the better scrummager but probably the more better set piece lad and exposed to French opposition more where he's always coped well. Porter has higher potential and is better around the park but at the moment very very little between them. Just more so Ryan has reached his ceiling and Porter hasn't. Porter is more a project for next RWC cycle as he is still learning the THP role too. But as of now there is not alot between them.

I'd also expect Jordi or SOB as 20 vs Wales. Same with Beirne.
On the starters Best needs a big game to fix alot but 6 day turnaround is tough for him too.

Carbery, maybe Conway, maybe Herring, Porter, Beirne and SOB/Jordi will all return I feel.
Murray and Sexton will need big games too or pressure will be fierce to drop 1 of them.

But for this game to be fair Schmidt has been smart. Henderson is injury prone so makes sense to not risk having replacement as a returning injury player.
CJ is back ahead of time so is still a bit of risk so makes sense having Conan there.
Ryan vs Porter is 50/50 and well Porter has been microscoped for his form lately. Makes sense to do it this way.

And subconsciously there is a squad depth being built.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Ryan is on better form and the better scrummager. Porter has higher potential and is better around the park but at the moment very very little between them. Just more so Ryan has reached his ceiling and Porter hasn't. Porter is more a project for next RWC cycle as he is still learning the THP role too. But as of now there is not alot between them.

I'd also expect Jordi or SOB as 20 vs Wales. Same with Beirne.
On the starters Best needs a big game to fix alot but 6 day turnaround is tough for him too.

Carbery, maybe Conway, maybe Herring, Porter, Beirne and SOB/Jordi will all return I feel.
Murray and Sexton will need big games too or pressure will be fierce to drop 1 of them.

But for this game to be fair Schmidt has been smart. Henderson is injury prone so makes sense to not risk having replacement as a returning injury player.
CJ is back ahead of time so is still a bit of risk so makes sense having Conan there.
Ryan vs Porter is 50/50 and well Porter has been microscoped for his form lately. Makes sense to do it this way.

And subconsciously there is a squad depth being built.

Ryan is definitely the better scrummager but his scrummaging isn't that good at international level that it should be earning him spots in 23s. Porter's scrummaging is average at best but he regularly locks down the scrum against far more experienced props. Ryan is very capable of giving scrum penalties away off the bench, he had one last time against Italy, he could (probably should) have cost is the game against the French last year. He was behind Archer at Munster last year, he's an excellent club scrummager but nothing more than that. If Porter gets anywhere near his potential he'll be a far superior player (and arguably already is).

But overall I agree this is a good selection by Schmidt.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

There's very little between John Ryan, Andrew Porter, Finlay Bealham and Marty Moore. Porter is the most explosive and along with Moore, they're both excellent over the ball. Ryan is a steady hand who's in the Mike Ross mould as primarily a scrummager. Bealham is more of a footballer. Personally, I'd prefer to see any of the other three options over Ryan because they're more dynamic but I'm still a big fan of the Munster player. It's a great position for Ireland to be in especially when compared to flogging John Hayes for years because there was nobody else.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ryan is definitely the better scrummager but his scrummaging isn't that good at international level that it should be earning him spots in 23s. Porter's scrummaging is average at best but he regularly locks down the scrum against far more experienced props. Ryan is very capable of giving scrum penalties away off the bench, he had one last time against Italy, he could (probably should) have cost is the game against the French last year. He was behind Archer at Munster last year, he's an excellent club scrummager but nothing more than that. If Porter gets anywhere near his potential he'll be a far superior player (and arguably already is).

But overall I agree this is a good selection by Schmidt.

No doubt if Porter hits potential he is much better but he isn't there yet.
Ryan lost his battle with Archee due to medical issues not form as such. And Porter has given away pens at scrum too. Simply put it is petty arguing any are worst than other. And I'd disagree on Porter being up against much better opposition as Castres props were some of most vicious and any test he has came through he has survived.

Agree with @snoopy snoopy dog dog though that between the 4 there very little and yes John is less dynamic but again this is due to his medical condition. The fact he has got to this level os phenomenal even. Moore is 1 who if he gets workrate upnto scratch he'd make a serious dash at the squad. And 10% agree. Up to few years we had just John Hayes then just Mike Ross. Now we have decent depth.

 

[Leinster Fan]

No doubt if Porter hits potential he is much better but he isn't there yet.
Ryan lost his battle with Archee due to medical issues not form as such. And Porter has given away pens at scrum too. Simply put it is petty arguing any are worst than other. And I'd disagree on Porter being up against much better opposition as Castres props were some of most vicious and any test he has came through he has survived.

Agree with @snoopy snoopy dog dog though that between the 4 there very little and yes John is less dynamic but again this is due to his medical condition. The fact he has got to this level os phenomenal even. Moore is 1 who if he gets workrate upnto scratch he'd make a serious dash at the squad. And 10% agree. Up to few years we had just John Hayes then just Mike Ross. Now we have decent depth.

Obviously Porter gives away his fair share of penalties as well, my point is that the gap between them in the scrum is much smaller than the gap around the park. I wasn't saying that Porter is up against better props, I was more trying to make the point that the way he copes against vastly more experienced props is very impressive given that he's a young guy who's barely played TH.

I don't think we're going to end up agreeing here, Ryan is a good player but there are other guys I'd prefer to see in the team.

And agree on the turnaround at props as well. We literally had two tightheads over 15 years and now we have 5 who are probably good enough.

 

[munstermuffin]

Obviously Porter gives away his fair share of penalties as well, my point is that the gap between them in the scrum is much smaller than the gap around the park. I wasn't saying that Porter is up against better props, I was more trying to make the point that the way he copes against vastly more experienced props is very impressive given that he's a young guy who's barely played TH.

I don't think we're going to end up agreeing here, Ryan is a good player but there are other guys I'd prefer to see in the team.

And agree on the turnaround at props as well. We literally had two tightheads over 15 years and now we have 5 who are probably good enough.

But the point as I said is Porter is off form a bit. That plays it's part in this tight battle. And Porter as I said will probably be in vs Wales. Part of it is based on form which is marginal and the other part is squad management

 

[Leinster Fan]

But the point as I said is Porter is off form a bit. That plays it's part in this tight battle. And Porter as I said will probably be in vs Wales. Part of it is based on form which is marginal and the other part is squad management

Look I'm not saying it's a terrible call or anything. My point is more that in general I'd much prefer Porter, but it's not like Ryan is a poor player or anything and it's perfectly reasonable to mess around a bit with the competition gone.

 

[munstermuffin]

Look I'm not saying it's a terrible call or anything. My point is more that in general I'd much prefer Porter, but it's not like Ryan is a poor player or anything and it's perfectly reasonable to mess around a bit with the competition gone.

Yes but as I said Porter is a tad off form. That is fact so that may have impacted it.
Also 6 day turnaround and considering it like Schmidt. Maybe Ryan is better vs French as the better scrummager and against Wales an rampaging Porter is the better option and it's smart use of the squad.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yes but as I said Porter is a tad off form. That is fact so that may have impacted it.

A player being off form can't be fact. It's entirety subjective.

 

[munstermuffin]

A player being off form can't be fact. It's entirety subjective.

Ok that's fair but Cullen admitted it last week and Porter himself probably would. Again I'm not saying he should be out. Even stated before teams Ryan would get it due to beimg part of all Munster reserves and the 6 day turnaround

 

[Leinster Fan]

And the centres were mangled early in the game with Farrell and Earls playing positions I hope they never play again in green

One of life's great mysteries is why Keith Earls is still considered an option at centre, a full 10 years after he broke through. He's s*** there, he's always been s*** there, the fact that he started a World Cup quater-final there has got to be the worst selection decision Joe has ever made (eclipsing Robbie Henshaw at fullback). Bizarre too given that Luke Fitzgerald was available. He's not a viable option there, whoever is 23 needs to be able to cover centre because he definitely can't (which is one of the reasons I'd prefer Larmour or Addison to Conway).

 

[Leinster Fan]

And the centres were mangled early in the game with Farrell and Earls playing positions I hope they never play again in green

One of life's great mysteries is why Keith Earls is still considered an option at centre, a full 10 years after he broke through. He's s*** there, he's always been s*** there, the fact that he started a World Cup quater-final there has got to be the worst selection decision Joe has ever made (eclipsing Robbie Henshaw at fullback). Bizarre too given that Luke Fitzgerald was available. He's not a viable option there, whoever is 23 needs to be able to cover centre because he definitely can't (which is one of the reasons I'd prefer Larmour or Addison to Conway).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

One of life's great mysteries is why Keith Earls is still considered an option at centre, a full 10 years after he broke through. He's s*** there, he's always been s*** there, the fact that he started a World Cup quater-final there has got to be the worst selection decision Joe has ever made (eclipsing Robbie Henshaw at fullback). Bizarre too given that Luke Fitzgerald was available. He's not a viable option there, whoever is 23 needs to be able to cover centre because he definitely can't (which is one of the reasons I'd prefer Larmour or Addison to Conway).

A bit exaggerated, probably purposefully, but I agree. The lad's best friend at international level is the touchline, the closer he is to it the better he is with and without the ball, midfield does not suit him.

13 at the last world cup completely scuppered us, we had Fitz who had been doing really well there with Leinster in a **** season and Cave, who was there for some reason too, picking Earls as Payne's back up was nothing short of madness. It really exposed the Kearney's, who have taken most of the blame despite it absolutely being shared, against Argentina and he also wasn't a playmaking option to take pressure off Madigan. Joe's biggest blunder of his career in Ireland by quite a way, at least with Henshaw there's no good option who's playing 15 regularly, there were other options then.

 

[Amiga500]

A player being off form can't be fact. It's entirety subjective.

Whatever, Porter was pretty brutal against the Cheetahs.

On two minutes and two penalties given away.

Redeemed somewhat later on with a turnover, but the two earlier infringements will definitely go against.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I was just thinking about our centres and I think there's an argument that Ringrose is our most important player. If you look at the games over the last year or so there's a clear trend of is being far better with him in the team. For example going back to the start of last year's 6N, we've had
•France: No Ringrose, utter muck for 79 minutes, rescued by one ridiculous moment of brilliance
•Italy: Decent win if not completely convincing, no Ringrose
•Wales: No Ringrose, good in attack, wide defence was terrible though
•Scotland: Ringrose back, he was probably our best player in that game, which was a fairly convincing win
•England: Ringrose in, excellent performance, never looked like losing

Then he's a central figure in Leinster winning a historic double, followed by the Australia Tour, where he doesn't play the first Test and Henshaw and Aki both have mares, he's back in for the second Test which was our best performance of the series and a vastly improved display in the midfield (probably helped by Sexton being in for Carbery as well though), followed by him missing the third Test, where we edged a close game.

The there's November where he played against Italy in Chicago and was excellent, and then didn't play against Argentina, where we were dull and uninspired, then he did start against the All Blacks, which obviously we won, and then he played with the squad players against the USA where he was obviously the best player on the pitch by a laughable margin, and was making breaks for fun by the end.

Then he's our best player against England, before missing the Scotland and Italy games, neither of which we were particularly good in.

The other slightly depressing reality you get from this is how often he's injured, but it's obvious how much of a difference he makes when he plays.

 

[Amiga500]

I think that is a point Alpha raised about 12 months ago!

Our next best 13 is probably Will Addison*, but his penchant for a few badly missed tackles every game would leave me worried.


*Could be Conor O'Brien within the next 12 months.