[2018-19 Guinness Pro 14] Round 7 (26 & 27/10/2018)

[Tooting Carmen]

The result of the weekend has gotta be Zebre thrashing Edinburgh 34-16! What is noticeable is how, both at club and country level, the Scottish first XVs are much better than they used to be, but they still have serious issues with strength-in-depth compared to the Irish and even the Welsh teams (apart from the Dragons, who are a special case of course).

 

[Amiga500]

I'd like to see Ulster give him a run at 10.

Not the only one who'd like to see that!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The result of the weekend has gotta be Zebre thrashing Edinburgh 34-16! What is noticeable is how, both at club and country level, the Scottish first XVs are much better than they used to be, but they still have serious issues with strength-in-depth compared to the Irish and even the Welsh teams (apart from the Dragons, who are a special case of course).

Yup, spot on. Scotland developing talent is a work in progress (with positive signs in my opinion). The depth is reinforced by "qualified" players. The point with that though is that a player who isnt good enough to be selected for their country of birth (or their parents birth) is unlikely to ever be good enough to truly perform at the highest level for a Tier1 nation, or even possibly a club side.

I do think Scotland will continue to improve its native depth though. Darcy Graham looked great on the wing and Edinburgh have a couple outstanding young looseforwards in Ritchie and Bradbury. Kinghorn is now a confirmed world class player in my opinion and all these guys are young, barely fringe players for the national team - the depth might be there come RWC 2023.

Edinburgh seemed to just think the game was won at halftime and left their brains in the changing room in the second half. Can you imagine being on the flight back home with Cockerill?

 

[Amiga500]

The result of the weekend has gotta be Zebre thrashing Edinburgh 34-16! What is noticeable is how, both at club and country level, the Scottish first XVs are much better than they used to be, but they still have serious issues with strength-in-depth compared to the Irish and even the Welsh teams (apart from the Dragons, who are a special case of course).

Rome wasn't built in a day.

It'll could take 10 years for that depth to arrive.

Ireland had a decent 15 that consistently were pushing for the 6N in the mid 2000s. Only now are we really at the point where we have a squad that could win the 6N with an injury in any position (and even then...).

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Yup, spot on. Scotland developing talent is a work in progress (with positive signs in my opinion). The depth is reinforced by "qualified" players. The point with that though is that a player who isnt good enough to be selected for their country of birth (or their parents birth) is unlikely to ever be good enough to truly perform at the highest level for a Tier1 nation, or even possibly a club side.

I do think Scotland will continue to improve its native depth though. Darcy Graham looked great on the wing and Edinburgh have a couple outstanding young looseforwards in Ritchie and Bradbury. Kinghorn is now a confirmed world class player in my opinion and all these guys are young, barely fringe players for the national team - the depth might be there come RWC 2023.

Edinburgh seemed to just think the game was won at halftime and left their brains in the changing room in the second half. Can you imagine being on the flight back home with Cockerill?

Yeah I hate the project/residency player concept. I have opposed Hadleigh Parkes' selection for Wales, for example. However, I am happy that Wales don't seem to do it as much as the other Six Nations countries do (even some of the overseas-born players are of recent Welsh descent anyway, e.g. Gareth Anscombe and James King). I believe in developing one's own talent, and certainly SA, NZ and the PIs shouldn't be treated as little more than feeders for the wealthier (but arguably less talented) NH unions.

As for your last sentence: yes, Cockers must have been fuming!

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Rome wasn't built in a day.

It'll could take 10 years for that depth to arrive.

Ireland had a decent 15 that consistently were pushing for the 6N in the mid 2000s. Only now are we really at the point where we have a squad that could win the 6N with an injury in any position (and even then...).

Half-backs? Paddy Jackson has gone and thus I don't see who is such a capable deputy for Sexton, while no one comes at all close to Connor Murray.

 

[munstermuffin]

Half-backs? Paddy Jackson has gone and thus I don't see who is such a capable deputy for Sexton, while no one comes at all close to Connor Murray.

Carbery has been superb last few weeks, Ross Byrne looks like he has the ability too

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Carbery has been superb last few weeks, Ross Byrne looks like he has the ability too

That still leaves scrum-half.

 

[dullonien]

Half-backs? Paddy Jackson has gone and thus I don't see who is such a capable deputy for Sexton, while no one comes at all close to Connor Murray.

Carbery isn't a million miles away, but he's a fair way behind Sexton, but so is every other NH 10! I don't think any other 10 in the world would have orchestrated Ireland's win v France in the duying minutes, but I think Carbery could be good enough to slot in and do his own thing...

Murray is slightly different. I don't particularly rate the other options Ireland have, but as long as Sexton is there to marshall things I think they can cope with a slightly below par 9 as long as that 9 does the basics well.

Both missing could be an issue though, but that would be the case for a lot of tier one sides.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

I rate Gareth and Aled Davies, Tomos Williams and maybe even Lloyd Williams over any of Ireland's scrum-halves apart from Murray.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That still leaves scrum-half.

We ended England's win streak without Murray. Despite common consensus Sexton is still a lot more important than Murray. Both those guys are needed for a slam mind.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I rate Gareth and Aled Davies, Tomos Williams and maybe even Lloyd Williams over any of Ireland's scrum-halves apart from Murray.

I'd take Gareth Davies but McGrath and Cooney are a level above the rest of those guys.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

As for Wales, I honestly don't see why Webb was (and possibly still is) rated much more highly than Gareth Davies. I don't see much difference between them, except that at least Davies (a) isn't injured all the time and (b) runs faster and scores more tries. (Even leaving aside the fact that Webb plays outside Wales and only has 31 caps anyway, but that is another matter).

 

[Amiga500]

Half-backs? Paddy Jackson has gone and thus I don't see who is such a capable deputy for Sexton, while no one comes at all close to Connor Murray.

Hence the "and even then..." inclusion [meaning we are probably still short in one or two spots].

But anywayz, with regards the half backs.

@9 I don't see John Cooney as a step backward from Murray in any significant way bar his box kicks which aren't quite as consistent. Indeed, I don't think Conor Murray would have done a better job behind the mess that was our pack last season.

@10 Carbery is going very nicely in Limerick these days, then after Byrne would be getting big games in Leinster if Sexton was injured. Other than that, we are short - at least currently. In a season I hope Lowry is our 10 and if he lives up to his promise then he'll be the one to take over the reigns from Sexton, not Carbery.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I still back Byrne to be Sexys successor. If he becomes a threat to the gainline I think he's// be better than Joey.

 

[Amiga500]

I still back Byrne to be Sexys successor. If he becomes a threat to the gainline I think he's// be better than Joey.

For Ireland?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

For Ireland?

Yeah.

 

[Amiga500]

Yeah.

Nah, can't see it. Far too passive and prone to sitting in the pocket. Every time I've seen him, I see a player good enough to win you a league, maybe at a push the Heino Cup if you've a great pack.

But top line international? He's 23 now - I don't see him pushing on that far. I know J10 only made his debut about that age, but he offered a worse team so much more from the get-go.

At best, I can see him becoming poor mans Radge. Which isn't bad. He'd have absolutely starred for Ireland in the 90s. But the bar has been raised far beyond that now. If Ross Byrne is the Irish 10 in five years time, we'll struggle to win much.

 

[dullonien]

I'd take Gareth Davies but McGrath and Cooney are a level above the rest of those guys.

That's fair atm. I think Tomos Williams will prove himself by the end of the 6 nations, and could very well go into the world cup as first choice for Wales, but he's only just emerging so it's understandable why he's not rated too highly outside Wales yet.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I rate Gareth and Aled Davies, Tomos Williams and maybe even Lloyd Williams over any of Ireland's scrum-halves apart from Murray.

Except for Gareth Davies, I really doubt that any of them would have done nearly as well as John Cooney behind Ulster's sad excuse of a 'pack' last season. Luke McGrath is proven at a much higher level as well.

I really rate Gareth Davies though, better than Rhys Webb IMO. Has a really good eye for the try line as well.