[2016 Rugby Championship] New Zealand v South Africa (17/09/2016)

[RoosTah]

So you play a non-event third game against Australia soon but the game every rugby fan wants to watch is scheduled over a year away. Suppose it builds the hype factor.

These schedules are planned a year in advance, and frankly England were rubbish until Aussie Eddie came along to show you all how to play the game after the WC, so the Kiwis obviously didn't think you were a priority and Australia is their closest neighbour and thus the games are always on in Prime Time so there's an economic incentive even if we're not likely to beat them.

 

[kesh]

and frankly England were rubbish until Aussie Eddie came along to show you all how to play

Nice to have a actual coach instead of a PE teacher in charge. Thx Australia. Also, they would make bank having a eng-ab game tbh senpai.

 

[smartcooky]

So you play a non-event third game against Australia soon...

Its not a non-event third game!

Just think for a moment about how short-sighted you are being...If England were playing a five-test Cricket series against India, and won the first three, would you cancel the Lords and Oval Tests and send India home. How would you justify that to the people who had bought tickets?

but the game every rugby fan wants to watch is scheduled over a year away. Suppose it builds the hype factor.

Don't overrate the importance with which fans regard your England team. If I was only allowed to go to or watch one test per year, it would be All Blacks v Australia; if I could pick two, the second one would be v South Africa.

 

[RoosTah]

Nice to have a actual coach instead of a PE teacher in charge. Thx Australia. Also, they would make bank having a eng-ab game tbh senpai.

You're very welcome. Although, I'm sure you understand that the Australian government have now cancelled Eddie's passport and have signed a deal with the US to ship him to Guantanamoo if he comes back again after our last series against you lot

 

[TommiG88]

Its not a non-event third game!

Just think for a moment about how short-sighted you are being...If England were playing a five-test Cricket series against India, and won the first three, would you cancel the Lords and Oval Tests and send India home. How would you justify that to the people who had bought tickets?



Don't overrate the importance with which fans regard your England team. If I was only allowed to go to or watch one test per year, it would be All Blacks v Australia; if I could pick two, the second one would be v South Africa.

Don't worry yourself chap, I would pick seeing England play Scotland, Wales, France and Ireland over playing NZ.

Apples and pears, apples and pears. England will face India in the test arena on British soil once every 4/5 years, so you cannot compare the two sports.

 

[profitius]

Aussie, Saffers and England can all beat us in a relatively short time, especially on their respective home patches, IF they can match the same level of quality coaching they all have the players to do the damage, Pumas are not far behind now, and perhaps Wales, Ireland and France could be somewhere if they could also follow a similar construct and regimen.

I think Ireland are following a similar model. Obviously it's a long way behind NZ but there's a new wave of players waiting in the wings who will push Ireland up another level in the next year or two.


I don't think anyone will challenge NZ for a decade. To do that a country would need to change a lot of things. England now look the most likely. SA ae now just an ordinary team, intentionally sabotaged by the quotas.


To be honest I think it's good for the game that NZ is head and shoulders above everyone else. They happen to be the most skillful team in the world so it's good to see skill and intelligence winning out over brawn.

 

[nzlizard]

Actually to be honest as an AB's fan I want to see them play England more than anything right now.

It makes sense, we smashed Aus, they smashed Aus, so the 2 teams in form from June were Eng and NZ, would love to see that game.

Back to the game on the weekend.

The weakest link for me was Fekitoa, just had a shocker and in terms of the rugby championship he has been our worst performer I believe.

Another thing that came out of that 1 game is that Cane > Savea any day of the week at this stage of their careers.

In saying that it was a hard test to gauge things by as it never really flowed the way we wanted it to and the AB's winning by 30 points without event getting out of 3nd gear.

 

[Larksea]

no one reason why the AB's are so strong right now. The coaching is ok, the game preparation is very good but in that area its more about continuity, we have had basically the same coaching structure with good continuity since 2004.

The key was obviously allowing the coaching to continue after the 2007 failure, allowing them to learn from it and keep building. Maybe you need to lose a WC before you can win them?

Maintaining success post World Cup has been about developing depth. We aren't better now than we were in 2015, we just haven't dropped our game as much as other nations post WC.

Team culture is amazing, really the work done over a long period through the Henry & McCaw era is still there today and maintaining it is priority #1.

I honestly don't think we are even playing to our potential. But we don't have a good enough challenge yet to get us to our potential. maybe that's England but we don't play them till 2018.

My concerns are:
Selection has been ultra conservative Guys like Julian Savea, Dagg, Romano, Fekitoa, Crockett etc. aren't the best options in NZ in terms of form and ability. They are playing ok and we are winning matches anyway. which is fine but we are not being pushed into selecting form players and trying to up our game.
Rotation has been given the boot, it used to be that in a series every squad member would get a proper run. Now it seems we have a set top team and others are only really getting a chance due to injury changes. What it means is our top side is getting overworked and we are not developing depth like we used too. it makes sense to give some players gametime to build experience yes (fekitoa for example) but it also makes sense to rotate some of our more experienced and reliable performers to ease their workload (Kaino for example, now injured...) and also give their backup guys a run to build depth (akira ioane or Dixon for example). IMO that was pioneered in 2009 and really paid off in 2011 & 2015.

in 2008 we ran our top team into the ground, a significant portion of that team spend large periods of 2009 injured. The experience and chances other players got in 2009 paid off big time in 2010 & 2011

I would have really liked to see us blood more players this year, starting a new cycle and with the Lions coming next year.

McKenzie, the Ioane Brothers, Dominc Bird, james Lowe, Matt Faddes, Tuipulotu and a couple of others look like serious prospects with potential to be long term All Blacks.

ALB is an example of one of those guys who managed to get a chance because of a series of injuries forced the selectors hand. he got a game and looked fantastic. Makes you wonder how McKenzie, Lowe & Faddes would do given the chance? On form they were probably better than ALB this year.

also worth noting that we actually lost a number of really talented guys due too injuries. NMS, Laulala, Edmounds, Ngatai, Moala, Broadhurst, Naholo (and Ranger??) to name a few I understand that Faumuina is going overseas. I think Laulala is going to take over that role he was really impressive in 2015 and unlucky not to make the WC squad. Hopefully he comes back and regains his form next year but i think we do have some really good young props around.

 

[Five Meters Out]

One large reason the All Blacks are so strong at the moment is the state of the opposition. In that final try by TJ Perinara, the state of the defending was appalling. A soft try like that in Under 13's would have the defensive team's coaches going ballistic.
It's not as if Perinara was clever or anything. He had a good long look as to where he was about to run.

 

[Shaggy]

no one reason why the AB's are so strong right now. The coaching is ok, the game preparation is very good but in that area its more about continuity, we have had basically the same coaching structure with good continuity since 2004.

The key was obviously allowing the coaching to continue after the 2007 failure, allowing them to learn from it and keep building. Maybe you need to lose a WC before you can win them?

Maintaining success post World Cup has been about developing depth. We aren't better now than we were in 2015, we just haven't dropped our game as much as other nations post WC.

Team culture is amazing, really the work done over a long period through the Henry & McCaw era is still there today and maintaining it is priority #1.

I honestly don't think we are even playing to our potential. But we don't have a good enough challenge yet to get us to our potential. maybe that's England but we don't play them till 2018.

My concerns are:
Selection has been ultra conservative Guys like Julian Savea, Dagg, Romano, Fekitoa, Crockett etc. aren't the best options in NZ in terms of form and ability. They are playing ok and we are winning matches anyway. which is fine but we are not being pushed into selecting form players and trying to up our game.
Rotation has been given the boot, it used to be that in a series every squad member would get a proper run. Now it seems we have a set top team and others are only really getting a chance due to injury changes. What it means is our top side is getting overworked and we are not developing depth like we used too. it makes sense to give some players gametime to build experience yes (fekitoa for example) but it also makes sense to rotate some of our more experienced and reliable performers to ease their workload (Kaino for example, now injured...) and also give their backup guys a run to build depth (akira ioane or Dixon for example). IMO that was pioneered in 2009 and really paid off in 2011 & 2015.

in 2008 we ran our top team into the ground, a significant portion of that team spend large periods of 2009 injured. The experience and chances other players got in 2009 paid off big time in 2010 & 2011

I would have really liked to see us blood more players this year, starting a new cycle and with the Lions coming next year.

McKenzie, the Ioane Brothers, Dominc Bird, james Lowe, Matt Faddes, Tuipulotu and a couple of others look like serious prospects with potential to be long term All Blacks.

ALB is an example of one of those guys who managed to get a chance because of a series of injuries forced the selectors hand. he got a game and looked fantastic. Makes you wonder how McKenzie, Lowe & Faddes would do given the chance? On form they were probably better than ALB this year.

also worth noting that we actually lost a number of really talented guys due too injuries. NMS, Laulala, Edmounds, Ngatai, Moala, Broadhurst, Naholo (and Ranger??) to name a few I understand that Faumuina is going overseas. I think Laulala is going to take over that role he was really impressive in 2015 and unlucky not to make the WC squad. Hopefully he comes back and regains his form next year but i think we do have some really good young props around.

I have to disagree about the rotation stuff being given the boot. Hansen has said that there will be changes from here on in to allow for the player fatigue factor, and to some degree, he has been forced to give some players more game time to bed down the vacant positions left by all of those departing All Blacks after the RWC.

I see the squad mentality, and the rotation policy as one of the key reasons for our success, as players seem to fit seamlessly in, if an injury occurs. If you couple the rotation policy, with the forward planning/succession planning, you can see parts of the reasons why we have been able to continue to dominate, but it probably inflates the scoreline/margins, as most nations have to deal with changing personnel in he year after RWC, and take time to bed down their combinations, it's just that the AB's were better prepared.

I take your point about the coaching setup though; it probably helps that they actively have encouraged the likes of Beauden Barrett to play his own style, and not like Dan Carter.

You can add James Lowe to your injured list too ... he had his arm in a sling two weeks ago

 

[smartcooky]

Don't worry yourself chap, I would pick seeing England play Scotland, Wales, France and Ireland over playing NZ.

I'm sure you would, and its no more or less that I would expect. The 6N is your competition after all.

In our case v Australia, it is an annual three match series for the Bledisloe Cup, a competition that, for most Kiwi fans is second only in importance to the World Cup (and for some fans, it remains more important!). If you cannot understand that, think about "The Ashes". Which would be more important to English Cricket fans; a series against some other nation, a world championship/No. 1 ranking, or The Ashes? Well that is what the Bledisloe Cup means to us, its our "Ashes" in Rugby.

There is also a good reason why its a three-match series, because in a two match series, its a dead duck if the holder wins the first match.

Apples and pears, apples and pears. England will face India in the test arena on British soil once every 4/5 years, so you cannot compare the two sports.

Cricket v India
2001 (A)
2002 (H)
2004 (H)
2005 (A)
2007(H)
2008 (A)
2011 (H)
2012 (A)
2013 (A)
2014 (H)
2018 (H)

10 matches or series in 14 years. next match or series 2018


Rugby v New Zealand
2002 (H)
2003 (A)
2004 (A)
2005 (A)
2006 (H)
2008 (A)
2006 (H)
2009 (H)
2010 (H)
2012 (H)
2014 (A)
2014 (H)
2017 (H)

12 matches or series in 14 years. Next match or series 2017


Its not a lot different IMO.

 

[smartcooky]

One large reason the All Blacks are so strong at the moment is the state of the opposition. In that final try by TJ Perinara, the state of the defending was appalling. A soft try like that in Under 13's would have the defensive team's coaches going ballistic.
It's not as if Perinara was clever or anything. He had a good long look as to where he was about to run.

I agree to a certain extent,

https://youtu.be/4f_FqkHgUGw?t=964

A couple of things to note.

1. Sopoaga is standing quite a long way from the scrum. Perenara has a very long & flat pass, second only to Aaron Smith; when the 10 stands that far away when the scrum is so close to the line, it is very difficult to defend.

2. If you look at where Faff DeClerk is positioned he is a long way from the scrum. He has a quick glance at Sopoaga, but IMO he's trying hedge his bets, to cover both a run by Perenara and a pass to Sopaga. Its the old story, a person who chases two rabbits catches neither.

For mine, this is about trusting your team-mates to do their own jobs. DeClerk should have stayed closer tot he scrum to defend the possible Perenara run, and let Steyn defend Sopoaga.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, I got my wish didn't I? We got schooled!!

Man that was awful to watch.

Elton Jantjies should swim back to South Africa!! and I hope a Great White shark eats him on his way here.

Faf de Klerk is getting worse by every game. Perhaps it's time to give him a break.

Francois Louw made 0 (yes, ZERO) turnovers in the match. That is inexcusable for an openside flanker whos speciality is to steal ball.

Our White Gorilla should perhaps retire now and just get it over and done with. But Marx then needs to learn how to throw in to a lineout.

I'm looking forward to what will happen this next few days. I hope we see some drastic measures taken sooner rather than later. I'm just happy that Pat Lambie has returned to playing for the Sharks, pity that they have a bye this coming weekend.

Thank you NZ for showing us just how poor we really are.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Regarding Fekitoa, I am not his biggest fan, and I was even less convinced about Crotty before the itinerary kicked off this year BUT... they have delivered.
Crotty has more than delivered on attack and he's no shrinking violet on defence.
Fekitoa has been outstanding in defence he just doesn't look flashy or 'special'.
I have gone back through the RC games and made a point of using Youtube to focus on Fekitoa and Crotty.
They both have played very well but, once again it has been a bit of an armchair ride. Other teams are not playing at optimum levels so any pressure they are put under is not consistent.
However, you can only play whats in front of you and Fekitoa has barely put a foot wrong on defence and when he comes in to support his strength in the tackle situation and the ruck is noticeably perceived. His body position in the tackle situation is almost always perfect for the AB's to get recycle ball and he is often taking two tacklers which leaves space outside. He's a strong bugger. On attack I don't have the same plaudits for him but he's a constant support player. It looks like he's doing a lot of learning out there and that may prove bankable in time to come.
Crotty looks right at home, he's been scoring tries and getting in close to Barrett where things happen. He puts himself about in defence and the pair together have not often been found out of position.
Neither seem to have much competition for their places at this time. George Moala is my personal favourite for the 13 jersey but he needs game time and his injury has given Fekitoa a free ride just as Charlie Ngatai's concussion issues are keeping Crotty free from bench time. They both seem to be making the most of it.
We don't have grounds to complain about them at this stage with results coming in way above expectation and while Fekitoa isn't setting the world alight on attack, we don't need that from him when he is surrounded by luminaries like Barrett and the Smith coalition, Savea and Dagg are scoring freely and running well. His defence and work on ball security is helping possession retention, game flow and quick ball opportunities.

 

[Shaggy]

Regarding Fekitoa, I am not his biggest fan, and I was even less convinced about Crotty before the itinerary kicked off this year BUT... they have delivered.
Crotty has more than delivered on attack and he's no shrinking violet on defence.
Fekitoa has been outstanding in defence he just doesn't look flashy or 'special'.
I have gone back through the RC games and made a point of using Youtube to focus on Fekitoa and Crotty.
They both have played very well but, once again it has been a bit of an armchair ride. Other teams are not playing at optimum levels so any pressure they are put under is not consistent.
However, you can only play whats in front of you and Fekitoa has barely put a foot wrong on defence and when he comes in to support his strength in the tackle situation and the ruck is noticeably perceived. His body position in the tackle situation is almost always perfect for the AB's to get recycle ball and he is often taking two tacklers which leaves space outside. He's a strong bugger. On attack I don't have the same plaudits for him but he's a constant support player. It looks like he's doing a lot of learning out there and that may prove bankable in time to come.
Crotty looks right at home, he's been scoring tries and getting in close to Barrett where things happen. He puts himself about in defence and the pair together have not often been found out of position.
Neither seem to have much competition for their places at this time. George Moala is my personal favourite for the 13 jersey but he needs game time and his injury has given Fekitoa a free ride just as Charlie Ngatai's concussion issues are keeping Crotty free from bench time. They both seem to be making the most of it.
We don't have grounds to complain about them at this stage with results coming in way above expectation and while Fekitoa isn't setting the world alight on attack, we don't need that from him when he is surrounded by luminaries like Barrett and the Smith coalition, Savea and Dagg are scoring freely and running well. His defence and work on ball security is helping possession retention, game flow and quick ball opportunities.

Interesting because Fekitoa seemed to have some clangers on defense for the Highlanders this year, and the midfield seemed a little brittle (understandably) against the welsh, in the early tests. I actually like Fekitoa as a player, but I actually see his position under more threat from the likes of Moala (who I'm also a fan of) and to a lesser extent Tamanivula, than Crotty is by ALB or Ngatai or even SBW when he comes back. My reasoning is that I think a lot of the organising on both attack and defense is being done by Crotty

 

[The Jones Boy]

Fair call on Moala, but if SBW can get fit he will walk back into the side. Straight over Crotty if need be.
Nobody offloads like SBW, he is the King.
The only thing they may do is maintain Crotty at 12 and drop Fekitoa for SBW ;-)
Either way if the great man can get fit again he will be a monty as a starter.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Well, I got my wish didn't I? We got schooled!!

Man that was awful to watch.

Elton Jantjies should swim back to South Africa!! and I hope a Great White shark eats him on his way here.

Faf de Klerk is getting worse by every game. Perhaps it's time to give him a break.

Francois Louw made 0 (yes, ZERO) turnovers in the match. That is inexcusable for an openside flanker whos speciality is to steal ball.

Our White Gorilla should perhaps retire now and just get it over and done with. But Marx then needs to learn how to throw in to a lineout.

I'm looking forward to what will happen this next few days. I hope we see some drastic measures taken sooner rather than later. I'm just happy that Pat Lambie has returned to playing for the Sharks, pity that they have a bye this coming weekend.

Thank you NZ for showing us just how poor we really are.

Jantjies should never play in a Bok jersey again. I sincerely hope Pat Lambie can play against at least NZ. He is our answer at 10.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Pat Lambie is quality and he's got experience. Such a talented player.
Poor young Jantjies looks a little scared on defence. Looks good on attack but looks worried on defence.

 

[unrated]

Jantjies should never play in a Bok jersey again. I sincerely hope Pat Lambie can play against at least NZ. He is our answer at 10.

I was supposed to stay in hiding until we gained back some respect but i had to re-emerge so that i could agree on this comment. Lambie should walk into the team even though i think he only played 1 game for the sharks this year. A few minutes for the Boks before that near fatal gluteus maximus attack. I would never have said this but if Lambie does not make it then Steyn should play. I'm over it now we don't have to play expansive rugby anymore lets just win some games however we can. Oh how things have changed

At what point do we say AC has failed. If we lose both our games at home or if we lose both of our next games at home plus the tour of the north?
Im very interested to know what his targets where and what the consequences is for a head coach who does not meet the requirements.
If we do lose both of our home matches then there would at least be a positive. We can only go up from there.

 

[TheOvalBall]

At what point do we say AC has failed. If we lose both our games at home or if we lose both of our next games at home plus the tour of the north?
Im very interested to know what his targets where and what the consequences is for a head coach who does not meet the requirements.
If we do lose both of our home matches then there would at least be a positive. We can only go up from there.

Isn't it always after the end of year tour, then the evaluation starts ?