2014 mid-year tests

[dullonien]

Not a big fan of resting players during the test windows to be honest, and I could be wrong (and probably am), but I thought there was agreements in place that all of the tier one sides would send the strongest squads possible when they were playing each other ... what's wrong with resting them for a couple of weeks during the club season?

I'm not a fan of resting players either, especially when touring somewhere like SA. However some of those players I mentioned looked lethargic during the 6 nations after a tough Lions tour. If they don't get a rest this summer, then it runs the risk of them being completely burnt out come the RWC. Resting them for a couple of weeks during the club season isn't really the same thing as a prolonged summer off, where they can embark on proper pre-season rest/training regimes. It's also not fair on the regions who are currently struggling, and would further erode the poor relationship between the WRU and the regions.

It's a hugely difficult decision. Weakening the side will make our task that much harder. In some positions we have strong replacements to call upon, Paul James for Jenkins, Ken Owens for Hibbard, Cherteris/Ball/Evans for AWJ. In others, such as tighthead, no. 8 and scrum-half finding alternatives to the established first-choice should be seen as important for our development going forwards anyway.

 

[Draggs]

Well, we have players solidly burnt out. Jenkins and jones must be rested of we plan to take them to 2015 as first choice.
Owens can cover for Hibbs too.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

SA vs a world XV will certainly sell out here. The organizers know where to staage their 'odd' match-ups. I can't see SA putting out a full 1st choice team for that one though just as I can't see the world XV side being stronger than an average Baabaa's side. Anyway, if it goes ahead it'll still sell out in Cape Town and I'd love to see some fringe players get a chance to maybe force themselves into test rugby.

I don't want to sound overconfident here but at home against what looks like a Wales side in some distress(?) I would be very upset if we didn't make it 3/3 counting Scotland even if we've had some terribly close encounters in recent years against both. At home nothing short of handsome wins will be seen as a job well done.

With the RWC so close it'll be interesting to see how the other 'big' teams fare squaring off.

 

[Big Ewis]

lol using information from Wikipedia are we Big Ewis

best looking, cleanest schedule on the net.

@Ewis: I see your point definitely, but even 10 years is not a lot to make big headway against unions who have had their own professional game and competitions for far longer. There was never much chance that in a decade Italy could become better than France, Wales, England or Ireland - only Scotlands embarassing nosedive has allowed them the odd dosage of self-respect. In other words it's a completely logical and predictable thing that they should still be a bottom of the table team. Especially when you consider their far from ideal domestic league and the turbulence that Treviso, Aeroni and Zebre have had in different leagues.
It's hardly as if Italy haven't improved in the bigger picture: Compare players like their current half-backs to those of 6 years ago

True about the backs, and I can only say thank God they're starting to develop something decent at int'l level there. But then there's also all the rest: they'll go on a big improvement stretch, turn heads, have people noticing them with their results and then crash right back into their old ways. They'll play really good Rugby for a whole tour, and just when we thought they finally have 'arrived' they go on and ship 30's and 40's or even FIFTIES.
There's no excuse for that. It's pure, pure inconsistency that spreads over large stretches of the yearly calendar.

If I teach a child the alphabet, for him to try and memorize it, and we get to the letter 'G' and I evaluate him after training upon training and he gets it right, there's no excuse for him to forget those basics as we move on to the next chapter. It's Italy's responsibility to build on what they've accomplished and acquired thus far.

A quick example:
* In November 2012 the host Australia and play a simple, forward-based, intense, tight-defense style that contains the tourists the whole match; only to miss the game-drawing penalty at the end. They were about to draw with Australia, a team that beat England in Twickenham that tour.
* In November 2013, exactly a year later, they host an Aussie team in the worst state it had (probably) ever been and ship FIFTY at home to them. And if you've watched both games, it's like two different teams from Italy. Two different teams. Or like a B team or smt...
and it's not just one bad game, the entire tour was dreadful and their subsequent 6N was also bad (good in parts, miserable in others).

 

[goodNumber10]

It's not about forgetting the basics, it's about being able to do them consistently under pressure and that's the major variable.

As painful as your anaology is you're right the kid should be able to remember the basics, but stand and start screaming at the kid with a stopwatch in your hand and 80,000 people screaming at the kid and see if that holds true, in fact you stand in the middle and see if you can do it?

Teams and players at elite level do not forget the basics, they are just not allowed to execute them due to pressure both mentally and physically - plus yuo start adding in personnel changes and so on....

 

[Big Ewis]

I see what you're saying, but all that still doesn't justify Italy's recent woes. They've been a sinking ship since June 2013 in SA.

I mean, and this doesn't explain everything, it's just an example and I understand England have improved, but look how many years this result took em back:
[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH]Date[/TH]
[TH]Venue[/TH]
[TH]Score[/TH]
[TH]Winner[/TH]
[TH]Competition[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 March 2014[/TD]
[TD]Stadio Olimpico, Rome[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11 – 52[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2014 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10 March 2013[/TD]
[TD]Twickenham, London[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18 – 11[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2013 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11 February 2012[/TD]
[TD]Stadio Olimpico, Rome[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15 – 19[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2012 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12 February 2011[/TD]
[TD]Twickenham, London[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]59 – 13[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2011 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14 February 2010[/TD]
[TD]Stadio Flaminio, Rome[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12 – 17[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2010 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7 February 2009[/TD]
[TD]Twickenham, London[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]36 – 11[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2009 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10 February 2008[/TD]
[TD]Stadio Flaminio, Rome[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19 – 23[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2008 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10 February 2007[/TD]
[TD]Twickenham, London[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]20 – 7[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2007 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11 February 2006[/TD]
[TD]Stadio Flaminio, Rome[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16 – 31[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2006 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12 March 2005[/TD]
[TD]Twickenham, London[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]39 – 7[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2005 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 February 2004[/TD]
[TD]Stadio Flaminio, Rome[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9 – 50[/TD]
[TD]

England[/TD]
[TD]2004 Six Nations Championship[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]


And forgetting the fundamentals, not executing the fundamentals, it's semantics at this point. The fact is they don't play nearly as fundamentally sound a game as they should at this point, especially in light of fairly recent results.

What happened to the Italy squad that beat France in 2013 ? That could've beaten Australia in 2012 ?
I'm not talking about the final scores, but the actual game, like, how they played during those games. Where did that defense go, that Orquera at 10, that excellent rhythm in the attack, that confidence ??...
They were 10-23 against the AB's that 2012 EOYT up until the 67th minute when they just broke down.

France are "predictably unpredictable" as the 'factual cliché' goes, but there are limits to that statement. We still win Grand Slams (i.e. 5 straight wins) etc...but Italy has got to be the most inconsistent side in Tier 1 history.

 

[goodNumber10]

How long were France in the 5 nations before they got on even footing? yes there were fewer games than now but even so... it took a long time.

Teams progress, personnel changes, and good teams find their rhythm (england for example). It's results against the lower nations you have to look at - scotland, france ( ) and the lower top 10s, low teens.

Samoa, fiji, Argentina and so on....

 

[Pockets]

@Ewis: I see your point definitely, but even 10 years is not a lot to make big headway against unions who have had their own professional game and competitions for far longer. There was never much chance that in a decade Italy could become better than France, Wales, England or Ireland - only Scotlands embarassing nosedive has allowed them the odd dosage of self-respect. In other words it's a completely logical and predictable thing that still be a bottom of the table team. Especially when you consider their far from ideal domestic league and the turbulence that Treviso, Aeroni and Zebre have had in different leagues.
It's hardly as if Italy haven't improved in the bigger picture: Compare players like their current half-backs to those of 6 years ago

Switching sports for a second, look at how quickly MLS had an impact on the US. People look at the 6N but for me the key point will be when Treviso are tIhat old.

 

[goodNumber10]

Treviso are older.. they've been a club for decades.

 

[Big Ewis]

How long were France in the 5 nations before they got on even footing? yes there were fewer games than now but even so... it took a long time.

Teams progress, personnel changes, and good teams find their rhythm (england for example). It's results against the lower nations you have to look at - scotland, france ( ) and the lower top 10s, low teens.

Samoa, fiji, Argentina and so on....

the France argument is absolutely irrelevant to Italy's situation, I've heard it a million times before and will reply the same way: France had just discovered the game at the time. It was before the "before the amateur era", prehistoric, teams didn't develop that fast, especially not in France when the Home nations were all past the Channel.
And France never got good, then relapsed, then good again. They got really good once and for all in the 50's, started winning ***les and beating NZ.

Italy has a long history before 2000 in Rugby. They beat sides like Ireland and France once before they were ever included in the 5N. They played all RWC's, even had alright games. And it was the pro era anyways already. And they had the Latin Cup and France and Romania as neighbors to develop on-the-spot, in geographical vicinity.

So comparing both nations in that regard is just an aberration logically.

 

[RWC2011Fan]

I see what you're saying, but all that still doesn't justify Italy's recent woes. They've been a sinking ship since June 2013 in SA.

I still can't believe Samoa beat them 39-10 last year. I mean, I wasn't gonna be surprised if Samoa won, but a 29 point margin?! I remember Hugh Bladen mentioning in the lead up to that game that the Italians weren't very confident going into it (they were staying at the same hotel as the Italian team, I believe).

I see they're playing them at home this year. Will be very interested to see how that plays out.

 

[goodNumber10]

I see what you're saying, but all that still doesn't justify Italy's recent woes. They've been a sinking ship since June 2013 in SA.

Yet only last week you were telling us all how Italy had improved and would maybe beat england if they got their basics right.

so which is it?

RE: the France argument, that's simply not true, France have been competing since the late 1800's, they've been playing the major nations regularly since 1900, and in the five nations since 1910 (bar a few years of getting kicked out).

It took France till 1953 to share a championship and til 1959 to win it outright. So nearly 50 years.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yet only last week you were telling us all how Italy had improved and would maybe beat england if they got their basics right.

so which is it?

well at that time in the tournament, when Italy had played 4 games, they had one good true Tier 1 performance in Cardiff, a game they could've won on the road. Impressive. They showed a lot of aggression at the breakdown in Paris, a fine game against Scotland, but then got smashed in Ireland.
At the time one could consider they had one big accident on the road in Ireland, and the rest was somewhat acceptable.

But the report for them after a full tournament still is in retrospect: 5 losses, a Wooden Spoon, including a blowout in Paris 30-10 (and shouldn't have got their try even without the red card shenanigans), a completely missed opportunity at home to beat a weak Scottish team (although both played fairly well), and taking 50 in the face both in Dublin and AT HOME by a strong but still imperfect English side.
The culmination of all those elements, especially the ending to their 6N adventure; adding up all those ingredients together and you get one pretty concerning current situation for them.

Had they lost to England, but only by 10 or even 15, one could call the match in Ireland an accident and the rest not good but not terrible. But adding it all up now, in hindsight, it's pretty dreadful.

 

[goodNumber10]

 

[Big Ewis]

oh God, I just noticed your signature just now....please remove it at once. I COMMAND YOU TO !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Maverick1987]

You can right the first NZ test off because some bright spark has arranged it so that we won't have any players from the premiership final. Most likely Saracens and Northampton so we won't have probably
m.Vunipola, b.Vunipola , Farrell, Barritt, Tomkins, Ashton, Goode, Hartley, Corbisiero, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Foden, Burrell

No major loss that Barritt, Tomkins, Ashton, Goode, Dickson and Myler can't go imo . Billy can be replaced with Morgan . Lawes with Attwood, Wood with Kvesic and hopefully Robshaw to 6 Foden we already have Brown and Burrell with Tuilagi . So on the presumption of a saints sarries final I think the first 15 at least should still be ok . Hopefully someone beats Saints in the semis . We can get by without the sarries players we will fell not having the saints players more . Best scenario for us is a Leicester vs Sarries final

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd forgotten Tomkins existed.
Really hope we never see him in an England shirt again.