[2014 EOYT] England vs South Africa

[Ragey Erasmus]

england were shi!ttest​, sa were shi!t the ref was shi!t.

Here, endeth the discussion.

ftfy

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Walsh was too bad.
Touch Judge had a shocker giving us that lineout, but other than that the refereeing was decent enough.

 

[SelimNiai]

I don't think Walsh was too bad.
Touch Judge had a shocker giving us that lineout, but other than that the refereeing was decent enough.

You forget though, how are people to react to a defeat if its not the refs fault?

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't think Walsh was too bad.
Touch Judge had a shocker giving us that lineout, but other than that the refereeing was decent enough.

I just thought the communication was very strange between them all today. I think I overlooked some iffy decisions as most of the failing were with players

 

[Peat]

Fun stat - Lambie made more tackles than he had touches of the ball.

I don't think I've ever seen that happen with a fly-half before.

 

[TheSaffycen]

right was at the pub so a lot of shouting and anger so can someone help me-
Why was Hartley sin binned ? from what I could see Thor was at the bottom of a maul.
Positives-
Our scrum held well and our maul was a bit of a weapon (what a difference Attwood has had there)
Brown had a much better game, Morgan was brilliant as well.
The Barritt Try was really well worked and finished

Negatives-
Now South Africa are the better team whatever but we give them as much of a platform as we can !! The breakdown was sloppy, handling was pathetic, imagination was non existent and we left so many points out there.
The half back pairing can't pull off the game plan, end of. Care and Farrell looked better trying too attack in the 6 nations than this kicking ********. And that's okay. There is nothing wrong with having multiple game plans but you need to play multiple players. Ford has better quality in kicking, Wigglesworth does too. Cipriani can play the game better than Farrell.
Anyway well done South Africa good win on tour.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Agree with Patchy about the breakdown. And it was so predictable.

I won't be able to say anything insightful until some mug puts the game up on youtube and I can watch again but a couple of things occuring to me right now:

1. Ben Morgan played like a man possessed once he came on - really top showing from him, really showed some energy.
2. Ben Youngs looked surprisingly decent but I'm starting to think he can only ever look good off the bench when the starting 9 looked ****. Be tempted to start Youngs next week.
3. ...and before this game I thought Lawes was a smart player. The two occasions he decided to try and enter the South African Maul from, not even the side, but worse, from where Reinach was standing!?
4. Between them, Lawes, Wood and Hartley conceded TEN PENALTIES! What the actual ****!
5. I miss Launchbury, and I feel our breakdown work does too.
6. Great to see Brown have a good game once again
7. Eastmond looks like he could be the answer at 12. Shame he couldn't hold onto that bloody ball in the first half near their line!
8. Attwood was good again, BUT WHY THE **** DID HE NOT GIVE THAT PASS TO WATSON/BROWN EARLIER!!?! Seriously, so all northern hemisphere players lack peripheral awareness?

 

[Darwin]

England v South Africa: A game of mauls......

Only saw the highlights, but I thought England's maul try under the post was class! I saw Hartley got binned - is it wrong of me to take some pleasure in seeing that (nothing to do with the Coles incident last weekend, I just think Hartley is a bit of a ********)?

 

[j-dawg]

ftfy

TyBBe xoxo

 

[ratsapprentice]

Hartley's card should have just been a penalty IMO, but it's consistent with the way the game is reffed these days... mummy's watching at home etc... can't really complain.

Lawes coming round the side was a pre-planned move - was was going round to sack the guy at the back England weren't supposed to engage the maul but Mullan dove in after a couple of seconds.

 

[Peat]

right was at the pub so a lot of shouting and anger so can someone help me-
Why was Hartley sin binned ? from what I could see Thor was at the bottom of a maul.

Thor was at the bottom, Hartley deliberately stamped on him. Walsh took exception and was only going to give a penalty, until the TMO told him to watch the replay, at which point you could see Hartley clearly show he knew the player was there and went for it hard.

No complaints from me.

edit: On one of the occasions Lawes came around the back after Robshaw had already been round and realised the maul had been joined, so he ran back round, then a few seconds later Lawes joined in. super dumb.

 

[Patchey]

Bingo. Perfect analysis of what England did wrong before the fame even kicked off

I'm amazed by my own skills!



Just watched the game, very depressing. Haven't had time to read through what others have said yet though.

Very disappointing, shocking lack of execution at times. Even more galling because we had a massive around of possession and our attacking set piece really looks to be one of the best in the world. Yet we can't turn this into points.

I thought Brown, Morgan, Ford and Attwood all stood out. We looked so much more dangerous once Farrell was off. He was trying to run and take SA on on the gain line but was making terrible choices, often just throwing a pass that out one of his team mates on the back foot. Happened to Watson twice!

We need a better breakdown performance, Wood has to go as without Launchbury in the pack we cannot afford not to have a dynamic, physical player challenging in the breakdown. Haskell or Kvesic would give that. We were pinged at the breakdown far too much, as well as not getting clean enough ball and not challenging the Boks on their own ball.

End of the day, SA were good value for money and England need to be better. I said before the NZ game that we can't win the RWC this month but we can lose it. Continue like this and we will have lost it.

On the BBC highlights show right now, Moody talking a lot of sense.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Wot I fink:

Marler - Mr Consistent, not really capable of dragging the team up to another level, but solid.For all the talk of people doing "unseen work" I think he's one it really applies to.
Hartley - Went well mostly, don't think he's our best hooker, but his darts are great. Card was stupid.
Wilson - Scrums went well, dotted down from the maul. Passed just as well as our SH's from the base on one occasion.
Attwood - The massive improvement in our maul isn't a coincidence. His error in not passing before the tackle wasn't as egregious as some have made it out to be.
Lawes - Launchbury comes straight back in ahead when fit, for me. Doesn't really do anything that effective consistently other than laying out half-backs.
Wood - One big break aside, didn't really notice him. Good lineout option, don't think that makes up for the general unimpressiveness of the rest of his game.
Robshaw - Industrious, would probably earn more plaudits in a better balanced back-row. Could be more assertive as a captain.
Vunipola - No lack of effort... no form either. Possibly a bit fatigued?

Care - Not bristling with form, but not quite as dire as is being made out. I may feel differently upon a more thorough review. Still making a few half-breaks.
Farrell - Just not a very good FH. He'd make a better RL flanker. He's a prop that can't scrummage but perversely gets selected for his step.

May - Winger, fast, annoying voice. Did well in BB's try.
Eastmond - Did well. More experience with territorial/clearance kicking and playing outside a competent FH he could flourish for England.
Barritt - Bradley. Not convinved he'd be our best option, but if our defense turns out to be unworkable without him, he may be able to be effective with the right people inside him.
Watson - One non-take of a high ball which can be put down to nerves, didn't really put a foot wrong. Lad's a talent. Might be an idea to play him at FB next week.
Brown - Better this week, still not at his best. Hopefully will be closer to it come Australia.

Webber - Did well, won a great turnover and carried well. Think the increase in quality over Dylan in open play is worth the tradeoff in lineout solidity.
Mullan - Didn't notice him other than when he lost his nerve and ploughed into a maul causing Lawes to be penalised.
Brookes - Carried well.
Kruis - Didn't really notice him.
Morgan - Great performance. Definitely back in the side on form over Binny.
Youngs - Came on at the same time as Ford so hard to judge. His passing is still brass (may have been OK today, can't remember).
Ford - Took about 5 minutes, but we suddenly went beyond 2 phases when he came on. It may have just been a coincidence, though.
Yarde - Didn't play.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Haven't read any of the thread yet, only 60 minutes into the game.

All I came here to say is: Dylan Hartley, you ******, how do you like the taste of them apples?

Back to the game! Been good (interesting, perhaps is the better word) so far!

 

[Peat]

Hartley, Lawes and Wood will all be getting the stinkeye from me for leaking 3+ penalties each. I demand better discipline.

Vunipola takes the brunt of the work and looks bad as a result. I'd play Morgan ahead of him, who's a cleverer and more rounded player, but I don't Vunipola is doing bad for a guy who's basically being asked to take on two people every time.

Care's option taking worries me.

I really want Webber to start ahead of Hartley.

 

[Patchey]

Wot I fink:

Marler - Mr Consistent, not really capable of dragging the team up to another level, but solid.
Hartley - Went well mostly, don't think he's our best hooker, but his darts are great. Card was stupid.
Wilson - Scrums went well, dotted down from the maul. Passed just as well as our SH's from the base on one occasion.
Attwood - The massive improvement in our maul isn't a coincidence. His error in not passing before the tackle wasn't as egregious as some have made it out to be.
Lawes - Launchbury comes straight back in ahead when fit, for me. Doesn't really do anything that effective consistently other than laying out half-backs.
Wood - One big break aside, didn't really notice him. Good lineout option, don't think that makes up for the general unimpressiveness of the rest of his game.
Robshaw - Industrious, would probably earn more plaudits in a better balanced back-row. Could be more assertive as a captain.
Vunipola - No lack of effort... no form either. Possibly a bit fatigued?

Care - Not bristling with form, but not quite as dire as is being made out. I may feel differently upon a more thorough review. Still making a few half-breaks.
Farrell - Just not a very good FH. He'd make a better RL flanker. He's a prop that can't scrummage but perversely gets selected for his step.

May - Winger, fast, annoying voice. Did well in BB's try.
Eastmond - Did well. More experience with territorial/clearance kicking and playing outside a competent FH he could flourish for England.
Barritt - Bradley. Not convinved he'd be our best option, but if our defense turns out to be unworkable without him, he may be able to be effective with the right people inside him.
Watson - One non-take of a high ball which can be put down to nerves, didn't really put a foot wrong. Lad's a talent. Might be an idea to play him at FB next week.
Brown - Better this week, still not at his best. Hopefully will be closer to it come Australia.

Webber - Did well, won a great turnover and carried well. Think the increase in quality over Dylan in open play is worth the tradeoff in lineout solidity.
Mullan - Didn't notice him other than when he lost his nerve and ploughed into a maul causing Lawes to be penalised.
Brookes - Carried well.
Kruis - Didn't really notice him.
Morgan - Great performance. Definitely back in the side on form over Binny.
Youngs - Came on at the same time as Ford so hard to judge. His passing is still brass (may have been OK today, can't remember).
Ford - Took about 5 minutes, but we suddenly went beyond 2 phases when he came on. It may have just been a coincidence, though.
Yarde - Didn't play.

Mostly agree. I thing Care is playing alright but his kicking game is really not suited to our current game plan. If we want to pursue with it, pick Wigglesworth.

Good point re Robshaw and also Billy. I'm also not convinced Lawes is all there in the head after last week.

I don't think the change after Ford coming on was coincidence.

 

[Peat]

Care only kicked 3 times apparently. He was playing his natural game, just with a bad platform.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Vunipola takes the brunt of the work and looks bad as a result. I'd play Morgan ahead of him, who's a cleverer and more rounded player, but I don't Vunipola is doing bad for a guy who's basically being asked to take on two people every time.

Agree, pairing Billy with someone like Ewers would help a lot I think.

Agree on Webber too, particularly if we aren't going to select a proper 7.
Good ruckwork and linking.


Just watching the highlights - it's noticeable that Kyle was misreading when Care was going to pass when at 1stR, danny looks at him then puts his hands in - Kyle takes this as his cue to start his run, but Care only brings the ball out to a passing position rather than actually passing, so Kyle has to stop and wait for the pass.

I don't think the change after Ford coming on was coincidence.

Neither do I.
I was being sarcastic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Youngs - Came on at the same time as Ford so hard to judge. His passing is still brass (may have been OK today, can't remember).

I'm far far from Youngs biggest fan but I think he did well today - Passed well, marshalled his forwards around and his kicking was better than Care's (though still not really international standard). He was taking steps with his passing, at times, but unlike Care this kept the defence guessing, rather than giving them time to just line him up and smash him.
I'd definitely start him next week, and if he copes I'd start him vs Aussie too.
I'd have Wiggy on the bench vs Samoa, as well, with an eye on having him on the bench vs Aussie too.

I have zero faith in our starting halfbacks after today/last week.


As an aside: If Farrell is out then I hope they don't call up Cipriani. As much as I think he'd make a very positive impact to this England side, I wouldn't want to risk the negative impact of having to work under Farrell and then come straight back into playing for Sale.
I don't think they will call him, though. Ford and Myler will be our no.1 and no.2 flyhalves, with Slade and 36 there for if one of them breaks in training in the run up to match day.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think the main issue with Care is he is too often slowing down our recycling, he can get the ball but decides to do nothing with it. Lots of the time the defence is reorganising but he stands there doing nothing until they are all settled and ready again, which is part of the reason England are struggling so much in attack. His kicking has been dire and he's still doing the bloody step before passing, which led to an intercept and try today.