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[2013 Premiership] Round 2

Who i really can't stand is 'hang out on the wing' Tom croft. He is no loss for england and i don't understand why so many people fail to see that yes he might be fast, yes he is good in the lineout BUT

he is not a aggressive tackler, he is not a great rucker and he plays far too loose. Thats not what i want from a 6! and it annoys me more when people say 'you obviously don't watch many tigers games' because yes i do unfortunatly and every time he plays he's waiting on the wing, standing in the backs. Simply a rubbish flanker

Rant over!

Croft plays instructions. Against Wuss, the win was secure from the moment Leicester walked out onto the pitch. The question was whether they'd get the bonus point. So Tom Croft, arguably Leicester's most talented open field runner, is told to stay wide. Pretty simple. Croft is also frequently found wide because he'll be the last guy to recover from the lineout, so the rest of the pack has moved in first, and a quicker runner doesn't swap inside with a slower runner.

Like, there's an argument to be had about whether we want such an idiosyncratic 6 - he's more a tall 7 than anything - I get that, but people who can't see his coaches want him stood where he is stood and start wondering why and figuring it out just confuse the hell out of me.

As for Robshaw, he's been quality, and there's no point arguing with anyone who says otherwise as they're basically a troll.
 
Friday teams:

Sale: Roberts, Jones, Thomas, Mills, Paterson, Braid, Seymour, Gaskell; Peel, Macleod, Brady, Forsyth, Cueto, Mackenzie, Arscott
Bench: Taylor, Harrison, Cobilas, Kulemin, Beaumont, Cliff, Ford, Miller​

Newcastle: Montanella, Thompson, Tomaszczyk, McKenzie, MacLeod, Barrow, Welch, Hogg; Blair, Godman, Catterick, Howell, Barnes, Cato, Tait
Bench: Vickers, Brookes, Wilson, Del Fava, Wilson, Fury, Clegg, Fitzpatrick​


Why have Newcastle dropped Brookes and where is Saull?

---------------------

Harlequins: Marler, Gray, PDJ, Merrick, Robson, Fa'asavalu, Robshaw, Easter; Care, Nev, Monye, Casson, Lowe, Williams, Brown
Bench: Buchanan, Lambert, Collier, Guest, Wallace, Dickson, Botica, Smith​

Northampton: Corbs, Hartley, Mercey, Lawes, Day, Wood, Clark, Manoa; Fotuali'i, Myler, North, Burrell, Wilson, Pisi, Foden
Bench: Haywood, Waller, Denman, Dickinson, Dowson, Dickson, Pisi, Elliott​
 
Who i really can't stand is 'hang out on the wing' Tom croft. He is no loss for england and i don't understand why so many people fail to see that yes he might be fast, yes he is good in the lineout BUT

he is not a aggressive tackler, he is not a great rucker and he plays far too loose. Thats not what i want from a 6! and it annoys me more when people say 'you obviously don't watch many tigers games' because yes i do unfortunatly and every time he plays he's waiting on the wing, standing in the backs. Simply a rubbish flanker

Rant over!

I really wish people would get off Tom Croft's back, comments like this just show a total lack of understanding of how the Tiger's back row operates. Croft makes loads of tackles, gets involved in rucks and mauls when he needs to and doesn't when he doesn't. He's more of a ball carrier than Salvi and Crane, so it makes perfect sense to have him in positions where he can do some damage. (Ask quins fans about last seasons AP semi if you have any doubts about his tackling or ball carrying ability)

Fact is he's one of England's best players and the fact that he's going to be out for the rest of the season is a HUGE loss to Tigers AND to England. I hope he can make a good recovery and doesn't end up going the same way as Harry Ellis.

Next you'll be having a go at Jordan Crane for being our "second scrumhalf" and whining about "that's not what I want in an 8!" despite the fact that having Crane as backup means that B Youngs has the freedom to go for his sniping runs.
 
Tigers have a long and illustrious injury list:

Marcos Ayerza
Graham Kitchener
Tom Croft
Steve Mafi
Ben Youngs
Toby Flood
Matt Smith
Manu Tuilagi
Scott Hamilton
Miles Benjamin
Gonzalo Camacho
Matthew Tait

So, it's going to have to be a real backs to the wall performance from the Tigers and really, you've got to fancy Bath to turn us over at the Rec.

For the rest of them I'm going Saints, Sale, Chiefs, Irish, Sarries
 
London Wasps team:

15 Andrea Masi
14 Christian Wade
13 Chris Bell (captain)
12 Charlie Hayter
11 Josh Bassett
10 Andy Goode
9 Joe Simpson
1 Matt Mullan
2 Tom Lindsay
3 Jake Cooper-Woolley
4 Joe Launchbury
5 Tom Palmer
6 Ashley Johnson
7 Sam Jones
8 Ed Jackson
Replacements
16 Neil Cochrane
17 Simon McIntyre
18 Will Taylor
19 James Cannon
20 Guy Thompson
21 Charlie Davies
22 Tommy Bell
23 Ben Jacobs

Somebody pointed out on the Wasps boards that this is just about the most 'english' team wasps have put out for about 15 years - which is great news.

This isn't about saying we don't want internationals from elsewhere - but certainly I think it's excellent as a sign of the encouragement of young english players - we only have 4 non-english in the 23, and 2 of whom are scottish!

Its notably a very big show for belief in charlie hayter to be retained at 12 and to shift bell outside him, bearing in mind Jacobs is a 13, far more experienced, and has been shifted to the bench.
 
I really wish people would get off Tom Croft's back, comments like this just show a total lack of understanding of how the Tiger's back row operates. Croft makes loads of tackles, gets involved in rucks and mauls when he needs to and doesn't when he doesn't. He's more of a ball carrier than Salvi and Crane, so it makes perfect sense to have him in positions where he can do some damage. (Ask quins fans about last seasons AP semi if you have any doubts about his tackling or ball carrying ability)

Fact is he's one of England's best players and the fact that he's going to be out for the rest of the season is a HUGE loss to Tigers AND to England. I hope he can make a good recovery and doesn't end up going the same way as Harry Ellis.

Next you'll be having a go at Jordan Crane for being our "second scrumhalf" and whining about "that's not what I want in an 8!" despite the fact that having Crane as backup means that B Youngs has the freedom to go for his sniping runs.

It really isn't though, of course you don't want players injured, but Croft isn't indispensable.

Is he really all that much better than the other English alternatives? I really don't think so, and in fact there is an argument that back row could be better balanced with Robshaw at 6, and there is also Wood or Haskell who can do a job at a similar level.

Even with Leicester, they have done fine without him before with Steve Mafi who has proven himself as a talented player in the Premiership and makes the drop in quality negligible. Jamie Gibson is a Saxons international as well as a depth option as well. Back row isn't an area where either England or Leicester are thin for options.
 
I'll be interested to see what McIntyre does when he comes on - he looked dominant in the scrum when he came on last week.
Possibly one of the guys that benefits from the scrum changes?

Supereagle: you have to accept that there is quite a large degree of subjectivity involved in determining how good players are.
And the only fact in this case, is that a lot of England fans do not rate him in an England shirt.

Bath team:
15. Anthony Watson
14. Semesa Rokoduguni
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Gavin Henson
11. Matt Banahan
10. George Ford
9. Peter Stringer
1. Paul James
2. Rob Webber
3. David Wilson
4. Stuart Hooper ( c )
5. Dave Attwood
6. Matt Garvey
7. Guy Mercer
8. Leroy Houston

Replacements
16. Ross Batty
17. Nathan Catt
18. Anthony Perenise
19. Dominic Day
20. Alafoti Fa'osiliva
21. Micky Young
22. Tom Heathcote
23. Tom Biggs

Pretty much the same team minus Kyle and Gilbert.
Kyle is a pretty big loss although if Henson plays well it might not be too bad.
Mercer will have to up his discipline - he can be a penalty machine.

Tigers team:
15 Niall Morris
14 Scott Hamilton
13 Vereniki Goneva
12 Anthony Allen (c)
11 Adam Thompstone
10 Ryan Lamb
9 Dave Mélé
1 Logovi'i Mulipola
2 Tom Youngs
3 Dan Cole
4 Ed Slater
5 Sebastian de Chaves
6 Steve Mafi
7 Julian Salvi
8 Jordan Crane
Replacements
16 Neil Briggs
17 Boris Stankovich
18 Fraser Balmain
19 Jamie Gibson
20 Thomas Waldrom
21 Sam Harrison
22 Owen Williams
23 Dan Bowden
 
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It really isn't though, of course you don't want players injured, but Croft isn't indispensable.

Is he really all that much better than the other English alternatives? I really don't think so, and in fact there is an argument that back row could be better balanced with Robshaw at 6, and there is also Wood or Haskell who can do a job at a similar level.

Even with Leicester, they have done fine without him before with Steve Mafi who has proven himself as a talented player in the Premiership and makes the drop in quality negligible. Jamie Gibson is a Saxons international as well as a depth option as well. Back row isn't an area where either England or Leicester are thin for options.

Tigers have about four flankers listed. Croft going off last season was the moment their QF with Toulon started to swing. And Croft's qualities are close to unique, really not very many back-rowers in England who do what he does.

Plus, lets be honest, the injuries probably won't step there for either England or Leicester.

I'd say it's a pretty big deal.
 
I'll go for Northampton beating Quins - although a Quins win will do Robshaw's standing no end of good, I think the Saints will be too tough up front.

Sale beating Newcastle - Baths demolition of the Falcon's pack is a worry for Cheryl.... well, so long as she gives a rat's ass about rugby. Who knows?!? Wait, I'm going to tweet her... View attachment 2467 yeah, yeah... Man she can swear!!! She says its green... I hope that helped.

Chiefs beating Wasps - this is just rugby basics really. Exeter nail their bread and butter basics and they're at home.

Worcester beating London Irish - not cut and dried, but Dean is a better coach than Brian and the warriors are at home.

Bath will beat Leicester - I'm basing this on the well known fact that Leicester start the season alot like a dowsy bumblebee on a cold autumn morning. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Saracens will beat Gloucester - Well d'uh.

Where did this other attachment come from? GO AWAY! Jees! You make one joke and suddenly there's a load of photos of Cheryl waving phones about in your post! Delete! Kill! DESTROY!!!! Ah whatev's. <_<
 
Tigers have about four flankers listed. Croft going off last season was the moment their QF with Toulon started to swing. And Croft's qualities are close to unique, really not very many back-rowers in England who do what he does.

Plus, lets be honest, the injuries probably won't step there for either England or Leicester.

I'd say it's a pretty big deal.

Which had little to do with Croft going off and lots to do with the props getting injured/sin binned and ruining the scrum advantage.

Croft is totally replaceable for both club and country, especially for a salary cap cheating side like Leicester. Steve Mafi will be a very capable player to fill in. If I were Leicester I would be more concerned about losing Flood, where the gap between him and Lamb is wider. England have plenty of options at 6, and as is often mentioned will probably be more balanced with Robshaw there.
 
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Which had little to do with Croft going off and lots to do with the props getting injured/sin binned and ruining the scrum advantage.

That's pretty much how I remember it. Leicester's tight 5 was the reason their competitiveness in that game.
 
Which had little to do with Croft going off and lots to do with the props getting injured/sin binned and ruining the scrum advantage.

Croft is totally replaceable for both club and country, especially for a salary cap cheating side like Leicester. Steve Mafi will be a very capable player to fill in. If I were Leicester I would be more concerned about losing Flood, where the gap between him and Lamb is wider. England have plenty of options at 6, and as is often mentioned will probably be more balanced with Robshaw there.

Completely not true, Croft was particularly effective in the lineout that day, and losing that was key. The Croft/Robshaw/Morgan back row was pretty nifty and well-balanced as well too, come to mention it. Totally replaceable is just nonsense. Both England and Leicester have good options, but none is the Croft option, and in both cases that was deemed so important he was brought back the moment his neck was deemed to be intact.
 
Which had little to do with Croft going off and lots to do with the props getting injured/sin binned and ruining the scrum advantage.

Croft is totally replaceable for both club and country, especially for a salary cap cheating side like Leicester. Steve Mafi will be a very capable player to fill in. If I were Leicester I would be more concerned about losing Flood, where the gap between him and Lamb is wider. England have plenty of options at 6, and as is often mentioned will probably be more balanced with Robshaw there.
What I love about you, duck, is that in a world where people speak in hush-hush tones about the awkward truth, you'll brazenly throw it out there for all to see. :p
 
Completely not true, Croft was particularly effective in the lineout that day, and losing that was key.

The Croft/Robshaw/Morgan back row was pretty nifty and well-balanced as well too, come to mention it. Totally replaceable is just nonsense. Both England and Leicester have good options, but none is the Croft option,and in both cases that was deemed so important he was brought back the moment his neck was deemed to be intact.

They lost 0 lineouts (http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2012-13/rugby/match/167681.html) so Croft going off clearly hardly effected it that much.

I'm not going any deeper on Croft's performances, but both England and Leicester can replace him without suffering much in quality in my opinion, in terms of ranking either teams most valuable players he wouldn't be in the top few. I also thought Wood and Robshaw on the flank worked better than Croft and Robshaw as well.
 
Watch it again Duck. The quality of possession for Leicester suffered, while the Toulon lineout became a lot safer. The tide had turned before Dan Cole's yellow card and Ayerza's subbing. It was definitely a factor and Toulon were able to get a bigger foothold in the game.

England and Leicester clearly feel differently about his quality. There are other quality blindsides for both but he is certainly the stand out for Leicester, and certainly a big blow for both Lancaster and Cockerill.

As for Wood/Robshaw vs Croft/Robshaw - hard to judge, as neither partnership's really had much time (all time without Morgan is considered null and void). Think it might be three games each. Both looked the business for us and I'd be very happy to see either again, although that might make me a lonely voice.
 
but Croft isn't indispensable.

No player is indispensable (especially in the Tigers set up), that's not what I said. Leicester played that majority of last season without him, remember.

That said, Tom's form was brilliant when he came back from injury and his return was a big part of the reason why the Tigers were able to step it up a gear and finish the season so impressively. This is why Leicester, and IMO England, are a better team with him in it than without him in it, and why I'm saying his season-ending injury is a huge loss.

I agree that Steeeeve Mafi is a brilliant player, but it's a long season and Steve won't be playing every match.

btw Toby Flood is out with concussion and will be back in a couple of weeks, this is why he's less of a concern
 
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As for Wood/Robshaw vs Croft/Robshaw - hard to judge, as neither partnership's really had much time (all time without Morgan is considered null and void). Think it might be three games each. Both looked the business for us and I'd be very happy to see either again, although that might make me a lonely voice.

:bravo: Not a lonely voice, I totally agree
 
REMINDER: The Saints vs. Quins game is free on BT Sports.
 
Saint's kit is VILE.

3-0 to Saints after nearly 15 minutes, very wet in west London.
 
They look like a rugby league outfit................
 

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