most overrated player and team in the 6 nations

[Captain Leisure]

(One of) The problem(s) that we have is that years of youthful neglect has left us in our current quandry. Too many new caps coming in at a time when they should've been introduced to the setup piecemeal.

That hits the nail on the head.

The SH teams identify talent a bit earlier and start capping them so by the time they're 25 they have 40 odd caps. Experience counts for a lot. I feel sorry for guys given their first caps so late - like Dowson.

I still disagree with Lancaster cutting loose Easter. Love him or loathe him, I don't recall him ever taking a backward step. His control at No8 was always good and his calmness and experience would surely benefit the side.

 

[HowieLO6]

That hits the nail on the head.

The SH teams identify talent a bit earlier and start capping them so by the time they're 25 they have 40 odd caps. Experience counts for a lot. I feel sorry for guys given their first caps so late - like Dowson.

I still disagree with Lancaster cutting loose Easter. Love him or loathe him, I don't recall him ever taking a backward step. His control at No8 was always good and his calmness and experience would surely benefit the side.

There comes a point when thats simply not enough. Plastering over the cracks won't cut it. England need to be taking some forward steps. If reaching that point means trying out a few alternatives, then sobeit. But picking an over-the-hill, chronically-undynamic yesteryear 8th man achieves nothing positive. While we may have been spoilt, thanks to the bulldozing years of Dallaglio, merely settling for Easter sets the tone that mediocrity will be accepted.

Essentially, Crane somehow blew his chance at being England's 8th man. Whatever happened to him?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Constantly injured, as is often the case when England get a promising youngster.

 

[mstar]

I still think Easter is the best English No.8. Should at least be in the squad so Lancaster can compare against Dowson and Morgan. At international level its all about pressure -your either handle it or your don't. I have my doubts with Dowsons and Morgans inexperience they can play their A Game when the pressure is on.

 

[j'nuh]

That hits the nail on the head.

The SH teams identify talent a bit earlier and start capping them so by the time they're 25 they have 40 odd caps. Experience counts for a lot. I feel sorry for guys given their first caps so late - like Dowson.

I still disagree with Lancaster cutting loose Easter. Love him or loathe him, I don't recall him ever taking a backward step. His control at No8 was always good and his calmness and experience would surely benefit the side.

You're kind of contradicting yourself a little. How are young players supposed to be getting up to 40 caps before 25 when we're giving those caps to players like Easter? For now, I'd be aiming to give as many caps to Morgan (as long as he's fit and in form, he plays) as possible, with Narraway/Waldrom providing back-up and Haskell covering (he'll be in future squads as a 6 anyway).

 

[HowieLO6]

I still think Easter is the best English No.8. Should at least be in the squad so Lancaster can compare against Dowson and Morgan. At international level its all about pressure -your either handle it or your don't. I have my doubts with Dowsons and Morgans inexperience they can play their A Game when the pressure is on.

The first bit we'll have to agree to disagree on. I'd have Narraway and Waldrom ahead of him in the prem, without a shadow of doubt. Haven't seen Morgan play much at all, but i've liked what I've seen.

And to get this experience, they actually have to play. We have four 6nations competitions to find out who can cut the mustard before the World Cup comes to these shores, little point in playing someone who is past his sell by date. Dowson is playing out of position, so i'm not sure either, but what have you actually seen of Morgan that suggests he can't bring his A game? Easter doesn't even have an A game anymore!

 

[mshirleyb]

Owen Farrell.
Really don't get what the fuss is about. Looks a ordinary, manufactured player, who is suddenly being hailed as the new Jonny. Now I am not an advocate of the "Jonny best 10 ever" school of thought but he was a dam site better than Farrell at the same stage of development. I shouldn't think that Gatland is losing too much sleep devising a defensive strategy to deal with the new wunderkid.

 

[m0rris]

I agree on that. The talk of Jonny is fair enough in my eyes as they are both fly-halves that will kick goals and for territory but create little. Farrell might have an ice-cool temperament which helps his cuase but apart from that he's really not the wunderkind he's cracked up to be. As for the Jonny comparison, he's not the kind of player that I'd fly up to Newcastle every weekend to play in my side. That said I'd be interested to see him playing in a side with a proper attack. My money would be on someone else being the starting fly-half for england in the 2015 RWC, Farrell would probably make the squad but not the starting 10 or possibly even 12.

 

[Peat]

I agree on that. The talk of Jonny is fair enough in my eyes as they are both fly-halves that will kick goals and for territory but create little.

This possibly isn't the right place for this argument, and I can't deny his last performances for England were pretty much all this, but Wilkinson on his day was no slouch as a runner or creator. Still is, look up his try against Bourgoin for proof. He's getting a raw deal from people who are forgetting these moments, or possibly didn't see them (I didn't see a lot of them first time around). If Farrell genuinely has the spark Jonny used to show for England, I'd be overjoyed.

 

[racingmetrofan]

Owen Farrell.
Really don't get what the fuss is about. Looks a ordinary, manufactured player, who is suddenly being hailed as the new Jonny. Now I am not an advocate of the "Jonny best 10 ever" school of thought but he was a dam site better than Farrell at the same stage of development. I shouldn't think that Gatland is losing too much sleep devising a defensive strategy to deal with the new wunderkid.

At 19 played the full 80 minutes at fly half in the Aviva Final against Toby Flood, won and bested him. Not bad for 19. I don't see how Johnny could have been much better at the same stage - anyways Johnny was 24 when he hit his best world cup winning form - the same age that Farrell will be in 2015.

Also what people always seem to forget is Johnny played in an excellent England team, that player for player was better than any team in the world.

 

[bushytop]

As good as Johnny was he had the not insignificant help of Johnson, Back, Hill, Dayglo, Dawson and Greenwood (as well as others) to help him bed in to an already strong side. Not sure Johnny would be the messiah in this current side... but maybe Farrell would've been great back in 2001.

 

[HowieLO6]

As good as Johnny was he had the not insignificant help of Johnson, Back, Hill, Dayglo, Dawson and Greenwood (as well as others) to help him bed in to an already strong side. Not sure Johnny would be the messiah in this current side... but maybe Farrell would've been great back in 2001.

I can only hope that you understand that all great players, on the whole, have a solid supporting cast around them, no? We haven't actually alluded to Wilkinson as The Messiah, either, but you are criminally underrating his ability as an attcking force, whilst also managing to overlook his significance to the game of rugby.

 

[Saintjay]

As good as Johnny was he had the not insignificant help of Johnson, Back, Hill, Dayglo, Dawson and Greenwood (as well as others) to help him bed in to an already strong side. Not sure Johnny would be the messiah in this current side... but maybe Farrell would've been great back in 2001.

Helped bed him into a strong England side are you kidding me. A couple of the players you named had only been in the England squad for a year when he started playing for them. When he started playing for England he was in the 98 tour that got spanked by New Zealand and Australia. Including the famous Australian kicking when we lost 76-nil. Also the 1999 world cup quater final exit. So did he go straight into a good England team clearly not.

I am not sure what 2001 has to do with it but he had been playing for England for over three years by then and only got better with experience. As the squad started getting better so did he from 2000 onwards they worked to a clear plan to be the number one side in the world and win the 2003 world cup.

 

[bushytop]

Oh that I might bring some negativity to the name of Johnny Wilkinson.

Never once said how I rated the player (which is very highly). Just saying England had some great players and experience and were in a stronger position when he entered the fray. England might have been 'smashed' by the big 3 but as far as the northern hemisphere was concerned they were still the main force.

Johnny will go down as a great rugby player... just pointing out that with all this talk (for & against) of Farrell being the new Johnny, regardless of his various skills and weaknesses, he is stepping in to a very different situation.

 

[bushytop]

And 2001 was when (from memory) I felt he started hitting his straps.

 

[Saintjay]

Oh that I might bring some negativity to the name of Johnny Wilkinson.

Never once said how I rated the player (which is very highly). Just saying England had some great players and experience and were in a stronger position when he entered the fray. England might have been 'smashed' by the big 3 but as far as the northern hemisphere was concerned they were still the main force.

Johnny will go down as a great rugby player... just pointing out that with all this talk (for & against) of Farrell being the new Johnny, regardless of his various skills and weaknesses, he is stepping in to a very different situation.

I have never been a hugh Wilko fan. Just saying he was in a good England side when he started is wrong. When he started they were not, both France and Scotland were miles better. Trust me having watched them they were pretty poor .

 

[bushytop]

I'll take your word on it... was too busy worrying about the Welsh team at the time.

 

[north]

Surely you have to be rated first, to be overrated?




Most overrated side is probably Wales: Don't get me wrong, they're a great team. However some Welsh fans, and Scrum V, go on as if they only have to turn up to win the Grandslam.

Most overrated player, despite not even playing yet, is Toby Flood. Apparently him being in the England side is going to turn us in to the All Blacks (and I don't mean we'll wear the change kit).

But they did only have to turn up.

They've been playing in 3rd gear and still beating everyone.

Expect a big performance against France.

 

[monkeypigeon]

Players: All of the Irish players except Ferris. Italy the most overrated team.