What is a knock on. Please get it right be fore the new World Cup

[easy2288]

i was watching the replay of this Super Rugby match between Blues and Waratahs and noticed the so called knock on by the Referee Chris Pollock. It happens when Adam Ashley-Cooper pass to Kurtley Beale and the ball hits Beale knee. Chris define this as knock on.

The same happened last night for the semis of the Heineken Cup game between Saracens and Clemont. Chris Ashton made a pass to Owen Farrell and the ball hit his knee.The ball roll forward and Owen Farrell ran and touch down. The referee Nigel Owens said is not considered knock on and awarded the try.

Is about time IRU get back to meeting room and decide what is a knock on ...before the next World cup

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't it anything from the waist up, not including the head, counts as a knock on?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Isn't it anything from the waist up, not including the head, counts as a knock on?

I thought thigh counted as knock on? Given that you can't take a quick tap with your thigh and you can't 'knee chip' the ball over the opposition (a la old school Carlos Spencer), that makes sense, no?

 

[tenpm]

From Section 12 of the laws:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball hits the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Seems pretty clear to me. Pollock simply made the wrong call.

 

[Big Ewis]

the Ashton to Farrell Saracens try isn't a knock-on by any measure, even I know that. Hit it with his knee although he was going for it with his hands, grabbed it, punched it down. Five points.

 

[lynam1104]

Supposed to be hand or arm but a lot of the time chest gets called too, which I don't really mind because if the ball bounces off a players chest its likely the ball was passed poorly.

 

[easy2288]

As i suggested before, I think IRU should implement new law similar like tennis. Each team is allow to contest against the referee decision and request for the decision to be review by the TMO and the 2 linesman. Each team should be given 3 opportunities.

Wrong decision has kill the game on many occasions. IRU should trial this as soon as possible before the next world cup.

 

[smartcooky]

i was watching the replay of this Super Rugby match between Blues and Waratahs and noticed the so called knock on by the Referee Chris Pollock. It happens when Adam Ashley-Cooper pass to Kurtley Beale and the ball hits Beale knee. Chris define this as knock on.

And correctly so if its the incident I am thinking of

AAC didn't pass the ball, he lost it forward and then batted it back, then didn't recover it himself...

[TEXTAREA]LAW 12 DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes
forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the
ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or
another player before the original player can catch it.[/TEXTAREA]


So the knock on was against AAC losing it forward, not against Beale.

This is different from what happened in the Saracens match when the player passed the ball and it missed its target because the receiver was tackled before the pass got to him (early tackle) and then struck Farrell on the knee. The ball never went forward from the passer.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

if it hits beale's knee surely it isn't a knock on unless it hits the ground first and went forward

 

[Groundhog]

I would have always thought that if a player received a pass and it hit his stomach without touching the hands it would be forward. Is that the case?

 

[usausa]

As i suggested before, I think IRU should implement new law similar like tennis. Each team is allow to contest against the referee decision and request for the decision to be review by the TMO and the 2 linesman. Each team should be given 3 opportunities.

Wrong decision has kill the game on many occasions. IRU should trial this as soon as possible before the next world cup.

Disagree. It's an 80 minute game, plenty of time to win it. One call or two doesn't lose you matches, it's not playing better over 80. I don't want to see rugby turn into American football or baseball, and it's a shame we already are seeing shades of it when the referee has to review almost every damn try on the TMO instead of just calling it. I'm all about getting it right, but human error is part of sport and video review should really only be used in extreme circumstances (like in touch or not at the corners), not for silly stuff like a forward pass to passes before a try and some stupid thing like that. We already lose enough time as it is with set pieces taking ages to complete.

 

[smartcooky]

if it hits beale's knee surely it isn't a knock on unless it hits the ground first and went forward

You're right, it is not a knock on by the player whose knee it hits, but if it hit his knee after it was batted back by a player who previously lost the ball forwards, then it is a knock on.


Let me repeat the Law, and I'll itemise it, then give examples.

[TEXTAREA]LAW 12 DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when

1. a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or
2. when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
3. when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward,

and the ball touches

1. the ground, or
2. Another player

before the original player can catch it.[/TEXTAREA]

Blue 11 is the ball carrier, he loses the ball forwards. The ONLY way he can now prevent that from being a knock forward is if he regathers the ball himself before it strikes the ground or another player. The operative word in the Definition is "catch"; he must catch the ball. Simply batting the ball backwards does not "undo" the loss of the ball forwards.

He bats it backwards and it strikes another player = knock on
He bats it backwards and its caught by another player = knock on
He bats it backwards and it touches the ground = knock on (even if touches the ground behind him or behind where he first lost the ball

 

[Shaggy]

Disagree. It's an 80 minute game, plenty of time to win it. One call or two doesn't lose you matches, it's not playing better over 80. I don't want to see rugby turn into American football or baseball, and it's a shame we already are seeing shades of it when the referee has to review almost every damn try on the TMO instead of just calling it. I'm all about getting it right, but human error is part of sport and video review should really only be used in extreme circumstances (like in touch or not at the corners), not for silly stuff like a forward pass to passes before a try and some stupid thing like that. We already lose enough time as it is with set pieces taking ages to complete.

I think the officials use of technology is about right at the moment, with the two phases before a try rule - I actually like it that a ref in a fast moving game can think to themselves, "that pass may or may not have been forward", and give the attacking team a conditional, benefit of the doubt up until a try may have been scored, and then show some fairness to the defending team, by reviewing the footage before a try is or isn't awarded. While I agree that teams should be good enough to overcome incorrect decisions within an +80 minute game, the video technology should eliminate some of "the ref's having a shocker" factor, in crucial games.

I'm always happy to see/read threads like these on the laws, because a lot of the ill feeling towards refereeing decisions comes from fans (myself included), who THINK they know a particular law, and then blame the ref because the decision wasn't made the way they saw it.

 

[goodNumber10]

As i suggested before, I think IRU should implement new law similar like tennis. Each team is allow to contest against the referee decision and request for the decision to be review by the TMO and the 2 linesman. Each team should be given 3 opportunities.

Wrong decision has kill the game on many occasions. IRU should trial this as soon as possible before the next world cup.

there is talk within the referee panel to introduce a decision challenge, nigel owens was talking about it on Talk sport. he said the idea is that you get one challenge, if you use it and the decision is deemed correct you lose it, if you challenge and the decision is deemed incorrect then you get to keep your challenge card (as it were)