Toeava vs. Ben Smith

[Larksea]

Competition is as tight as it has ever been for many positions for the AB's squad and these are two guys who though they couldn't look any more different they both bring almost identical skills and utility to the team they are in and they are both in blistering form.

They went head to head last weekend, and though blues won the war i think in the battle between Smith and Toeava... Ben smith was clearly the more impressive of the two.

IMO Both players are fullbacks who can cover any position on either the wing or mid field. Both could also cover 10 in a pinch though neither are known as goal kickers.

They have a very similar kicking game, though I would give smith the edge in this department.

Toeava is bigger/stronger though Smith seems to be faster and his power seems to often suprise defenders. Toeava is a brilliant runner, one of the best around but he has been prone to errors at times. Smith may not be as strong a ball carrier overall but to make up for that he hardly ever makes mistakes.

Who would you pick? Or is there room for both in a 30 man squad? Selecting both would likely mean no room for Cory Jane.

 

[Super Sub]

Ben Smith has the better form of the last two weeks but before then, Toeava was in better form for most of the weeks. So Toeava gets the edge for the season, but Ben Smith could take over the 2nd half of the season.

I don't think Smith is quicker though, his fitness is probably better, so he can carry his speed better over the course of the game than Toeava, but Toeava's acceleration is 2nd to none.

Smith tackling is a bit of a worry though, I've noticed he slips off a few too many easy ones.

 

[Darwin]

Competition is as tight as it has ever been for many positions for the AB's squad and these are two guys who though they couldn't look any more different they both bring almost identical skills and utility to the team they are in and they are both in blistering form.

They went head to head last weekend, and though blues won the war i think in the battle between Smith and Toeava... Ben smith was clearly the more impressive of the two.

IMO Both players are fullbacks who can cover any position on either the wing or mid field. Both could also cover 10 in a pinch though neither are known as goal kickers.

They have a very similar kicking game, though I would give smith the edge in this department.

Toeava is bigger/stronger though Smith seems to be faster and his power seems to often suprise defenders. Toeava is a brilliant runner, one of the best around but he has been prone to errors at times. Smith may not be as strong a ball carrier overall but to make up for that he hardly ever makes mistakes.

Who would you pick? Or is there room for both in a 30 man squad? Selecting both would likely mean no room for Cory Jane.

Personally I would take both, but I'd imagine the AB's selectors will only take Toeava. I was a bit disappointed to see Toeava make a few basic errors this week, as he did last week, as he seemed to have eliminated these errors from his game in the early part of the competition.

I could potentially see both of these players in the squad, along with Cory Jane, if the AB's decide to only take three specialist midfield backs. They only took three specialist midfield backs (with 6 wings/fullbacks picked) on last years end of year tour (Nonu, SBW, Smith). Toeava was there as cover, however Kahui was injured at the time. If they decide against picking Kahui (or Kahui is injured) I think they will again only pick 3 specialist midfielders, and pick the extra outside back.

 

[Bossco]

Toeava, although if it wasn't WC year then I think the odds would be 50/50.

 

[Larksea]

yeah, I know Dagg and Kahui are in the similar selection frame as well but they offer fairly different skillsets. Dagg is more of an all out fullback who can cover wing as well, Kahui more of an all out mid fielder who can cover wing.

I'm almost certain kahui will be selected as long as he's fit. Though he isn't lighting the super15 on fire he's looked good on attack though he hasn't had a huge amount of good ball and he's been very very good on defence. But mostly because he has a proven ability to play test rugby and also lift his game to a much higher level when needed. Like he can flick a switch and lift his game without becoming more error prone (though it could be said he does risk injury more in doing so).

Dagg is interesting too because though he's been a bit mistake prone this year he's also shown he still has the ability to come up with game breaking individuel plays, he will still be odds on to be the 2nd specialist fullback behind Mills. All he needs to do is keep his error rate in check to secure his spot.

I highlighted Smith & Toeava because with the squads they are in they offer almost exactly the same set of skills. because of that it's hard for me to imagine them both being selected in a 30man squad but it's not out of the question.

 

[Darwin]

yeah, I know Dagg and Kahui are in the similar selection frame as well but they offer fairly different skillsets. Dagg is more of an all out fullback who can cover wing as well, Kahui more of an all out mid fielder who can cover wing.

I'm almost certain kahui will be selected as long as he's fit. Though he isn't lighting the super15 on fire he's looked good on attack though he hasn't had a huge amount of good ball and he's been very very good on defence. But mostly because he has a proven ability to play test rugby and also lift his game to a much higher level when needed. Like he can flick a switch and lift his game without becoming more error prone (though it could be said he does risk injury more in doing so).

Dagg is interesting too because though he's been a bit mistake prone this year he's also shown he still has the ability to come up with game breaking individuel plays, he will still be odds on to be the 2nd specialist fullback behind Mills. All he needs to do is keep his error rate in check to secure his spot.

I highlighted Smith & Toeava because with the squads they are in they offer almost exactly the same set of skills. because of that it's hard for me to imagine them both being selected in a 30man squad but it's not out of the question.

Personally I wouldn't have Dagg in my squad, as he makes far too many basic mistakes for my liking, and his decision making is often very poor. I would have Toeava, Ben Smith, or Cory Jane starting at fullback ahead of Dagg. If Dagg could cut down his error rate and improve his decision making he would be a great player, but he doesn't seem to be noticeably improving in these areas.... Despite this I do think Dagg will get picked, as Henry and co. always back themselves to get the best out of players, and Dagg at his best is a scary prospect for any opposition.

 

[lance2010]

I'd go for Toeava as he can cover Fullback,Wings,Center.Versatility is a big key for me.Nothing against Ben Smith but he is not as versatile as Toeava.

 

[markshaw]

Yeah Toeava, Smith didnt impress in the Black jersey last time

 

[Darwin]

I'd go for Toeava as he can cover Fullback,Wings,Center.Versatility is a big key for me.Nothing against Ben Smith but he is not as versatile as Toeava.

Smith is just as versatile as Toeava, as he can cover fullback, wing, and both midfield positions too...

 

[lance2010]

Smith is just as versatile as Toeava, as he can cover fullback, wing, and both midfield positions too...

At International level i was meaning not Super Rugby level...

 

[Larksea]

At International level i was meaning not Super Rugby level...

Ben smith is only had like one test? It's obvious that Toeava has a clear edge as far as international experience goes but have to consider that Toeava has only become a reliable test player within the last couple of years even though he has been around the AB's for a long time now. Ben smith played very well in his limited time for the AB's, one dropped ball with his first touch then he bounced back very well. He's also a better player now than he was then. Also note that he was in the playmaker role for the NZ 7's team that won gold.

Also on Ben smiths utility - I think ben smith is much better playing 12 or 13 than Toeava who seems to be more error prone playing in mid field than he is on the wing or 15.

Both are great players. I admit I'm really liking Ben Smith right now and the one thing that tips the scales for me is that when he's on attack he's less likely to try a 50/50 pass - he seems to make more of the breaks & chances that he creates. Which is pretty critical because turnovers in attacking situations need to be cut to an absolute minimum in world cup rugby. Patience is the key and it's one thing a lot of key players in NZ are a bit short on in super rugby.

 

[nickdnz]

Ben Smith wouldn't make it into my RWC squad. He's looked good this season, but it's just not the time to chuck a new player into the All Blacks. I disagree Ben Smith has more speed than Toeava, and I think Toeava or Jane will be covering that win position as much as the centres and fullback, and I don't think he has the pace of either Jane or Toeava to make him a good winger (I have not been impressed with his games on the wing.

 

[Sam Owen]

Ben Smith reminds me of the Highlanders former no.12 John Leslie. Leslie was good enough to be an All Black but I dont think he ever got picked. Anyway they play very similar and thats a good thing, both very good players.

I like both Toeava and Smith. Smith IMO is more reliable (e.g hardly makes mistakes). Toeava is a line-breaker.

 

[markshaw]

Yeah I agree, Smith would have been picked if he was up to it

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Ben Smith reminds me of the Highlanders former no.12 John Leslie.

very good call, hadn't occured to me but now you say it i see it.

I have to say I have never been impressed with Toeava until the end of year tour last year where he really showed some skill and of course this season for the blues.

its strange I would say they are very different players but that couple be base on one different alone.

smith is a more "stable" player and Toeava is more "edgy". (if that makes sense)

I have more confidence with Smith comanding the back of the field, always good positioning and normally makes the right call , run/pass/kick, a bit more of a lone ranger (hence why im not as much of a fan of him in mid field)

where as Toeava links pretty well with him midfield etc and will back himself to do something special but this does make me nervous when hes on his own or when the kick goes over the back, will he be in position? or will he be too far up looking for action.

I would say they were 60/40 at the moment to smith but think Toeava will go just because he's been there before.

Any change to that could only be based on a major tactics decision, ie. we'll let our midfield work on their own and outsides on their own rather than fullback and wings coming into the centres which has been the trend for a while.

 

[Black Heart]

I wouldn't take Smith to the WC if it came to the expense of a proven player like Corey Jane. Toeava would be my preferred option.

 

[woodward]

I would say they were 60/40 at the moment to smith

the chance of Ben Smith making the squad ahead of Toeava is zero, except in the case of injury.

 

[Amobokoboko]

I also would take ICE, had a good EOYT.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

the chance of Ben Smith making the squad ahead of Toeava is zero, except in the case of injury.

Did you actually read the rest of the sentence? I said Toeava will prob go due to his experience, I only said purely on form I think smith is slightly ahead

 

[woodward]

It seemed like you meant it was 60/40 except for the experience factor which apart from being probably not quite right as many would agree Toeava has been one of the best backs in the comp, the cartel generally don't select on form. Toeava is experienced because this same coaching panel gave him international experience, there is no way they would change their minds based on a couple of weeks form especially when hes had the edge all season before that. I would say Toeava could play like **** the rest of S15 and still make the 3N squad ahead of Ben Smith.
Interestingly Toeava is still ahead on running metres
1. Isaia Toeava (Blues) 934
2. Israel Dagg (Crusaders) 810
3. Rene Ranger (Blues) 803
4. Ben Smith (Highlanders) 800
5. Willem Alberts (Sharks) 730
6. Doppies la Grange (Lions) 693
7. Digby Ioane (Reds) 689
8. Lelia Masaga (Chiefs) 686
9. Kade Poki (Highlanders) 672
10. Sitiveni Sivivatu (Chiefs) 671
he's 5th in try assists (Ben Smith nowhere to be seen), tied on 7 linebreaks with Smith and in the top 20 for linebreak assists Smith again not on the list. I will have to confess my ignorance as to how many games Smith has played this season, if hes missed quite a few it would explain him not featuring as prominently in the stats as the other contenders. Israel Dagg for example is second to only Toeava for run metres, 3rd on the try scoring list, 3rd for try assists, 7th for linebreaks and 8th for offloads. Very impressive reading for a player considered not quite on top of his game.