The Residency Rule Thread

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm always really dubious about citizenship laws being a qualifier, Ireland has pretty lax (relatively laws) other countries stronger.

South Africa for instance has stronger rules than Ireland on naturalisation.

Also decendency as I've noted before If my grandmother was Irish instead of SA I'd qualify for Irish citenzenship but as she's not I don't qualify for SA citizenship as she's not my parent.

That's where the difficulty lies. As I said earlier our laws are as they are, and my opinion on the fluidity of nationality is what it is because of multiple periods of forced mass emigration and multiple conflicts where nationality was at the very core.

It's for world rugby to determine what they think is right, they're always going to upset someone with residency or parent/grandparent rules.

 

[Leinster Fan]

At this stage CJ Stander is an Irish citizen who has settled in Ireland, afaik considers it his long term home and has made a massive contribution to his local area. He's lived here for seven years, at this point he's as entitled to play for Ireland as I am (in my opinion). Don't really agree with the old three year residency rule but it's gone now and there's no real point complaining about it, he'd be long qualified to play for us under the new rules as well.

He absolutely wasn't brought to Ireland to play for Ireland (no one is). To say it was a 'sure thing' he'd play for us is just ignorant. For every CJ Stander, Jean Kleyn or Bundee Aki who end up playing for Ireland there are just as many guys who came here to play for one of the provinces and got nowhere near the national team. As others have said, for most of Stander's first contract he looked like he was going to be one of those. These guys get scouted and recruited by the provinces, they're good enough and stay around long enough they get called up to the Ireland squad but they aren't signed with that explicit intertion (to be honest most of them are nowhere near the required standard when they arrive into the country) although it is definitely recognised as a possibility.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

You don't know the facts of Stander's case.

Not true. I know he played for RSA as a junior. I know he was selected for the Springboks but never actually played I know he then relocated to Ireland and later played for Ireland.
On those facts alone, i am 100% against him playing for Ireland and I've explained why. It's what the game is supposed to be about and it is not good for the development of the sport.
The rules allow him to do so, granted, no argument there. But my understanding is that we are discussing, precisely, the rules.

For the record, had he not played for RSA as a junior or gone with the tour, i wouldn't like it but i'd be ok with him playing for Ireland.

My biggest issue with all this is attacking individuals trying to earn a living.

Not sure if you are exaggerating for effect again, hope you are.
We are not talking about a guy below the poverty line who escaped a totalitarian regime and took his chances on a raft and landed on the coasts of baltimore to be saved by the hordes of humanitarian and benevolent Irish.
He was an adult, professional player who knew his chances in RSA were slim at best and took a shot elsewhere.

I think the key is that you think national teams are a place for players to make a profit from. I don't.


PS: silly question: Since when have you been a mod?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not true. I know he played for RSA as a junior. I know he was selected for the Springboks but never actually played I know he then relocated to Ireland and later played for Ireland.
On those facts alone, i am 100% against him playing for Ireland and I've explained why. It's what the game is supposed to be about and it is not good for the development of the sport.
The rules allow him to do so, granted, no argument there. But my understanding is that we are discussing, precisely, the rules.

I was addressing the following quote which is wrong:

"He didnt take a gamble on Ireland, that's the point. Ireland was the sure thing,"

For the record, had he not played for RSA as a junior or gone with the tour, i wouldn't like it but i'd be ok with him playing for Ireland.

That's a fair opinion, I've stated why I disagree.

Not sure if you are exaggerating for effect again, hope you are.
We are not talking about a guy below the poverty line who escaped a totalitarian regime and took his chances on a raft and landed on the coasts of baltimore to be saved by the hordes of humanitarian and benevolent Irish.
He was an adult, professional player who knew his chances in RSA were slim at best and took a shot elsewhere.

I wasn't exaggerating, I don't really think there's much difference academically whether someone is escaping poverty to make €10m and someone plying his trade elsewhere to make more money. One is obviously a better story but both are examples of players enjoying their right to earn a livlihood to the max.

I think the key is that you think national teams are a place for players to make a profit from. I don't.

I don't, I just don't think the residency rules should change. I'd advocate increased player welfare and the banning of international match fees in a heartbeat, both would do more to achieve "purer" international competition than any reasonable eligibility laws.

If there's no financial reward for playing internationally you'd not only stop disincentivise the likes of Stander and Aki but also the likes of Maitland and Te'o who are going to qualify under any laws by virtue of their parents. Te'o is far more offensive than a Stander type in my opinion, England was only a pay cheque to him, after his first set back he jetted off to France for the more money having done nothing for the club that signed him in England.

PS: silly question: Since when have you been a mod?

I'm not? Haha! I'd never want to be one either, I'd become drunk with phoney power!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

"He didnt take a gamble on Ireland, that's the point. Ireland was the sure thing,"

Fair enough. Rephrase. I think he knew he had a very high chance of making the Irish team.

I don't really think there's much difference academically whether someone is escaping poverty to make €10m and someone plying his trade elsewhere to make more money.

That is an incredibly convenient position to have given the side of the argument you happen to be defending.

I happen to think that there is a world of difference between helping people who can't help themselves and aiding someone to go from rich to richer. Academically and from a practical pov.

I don't, I just don't think the residency rules should change. I'd advocate increased player welfare and the banning of international match fees in a heartbeat, both would do more to achieve "purer" international competition than any reasonable eligibility laws.

See that's the thing. I find it very, very hard believing you want a "purer" international competition while at the same time you are ok with CJ playing with you.

I don't believe a single non-irish in this thread would read/listen to CJ's story and think "yeah, that is what i want international rugby to be about".

If there's no financial reward for playing internationally you'd not only stop disincentivise the likes of Stander and Aki but also the likes of Maitland and Te'o who are going to qualify under any laws by virtue of their parents. Te'o is far more offensive than a Stander type in my opinion, England was only a pay cheque to him, after his first set back he jetted off to France for the more money having done nothing for the club that signed him in England.

I'm fine with that. Disincentivize both.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Nothing here addresses what I said. He's on record saying he wasn't happy in his club and with his coaches in SA and was considering returning to the family farm prior to opportunities in Europe presenting themselves. It was nothing to do with wanting to play international rugby.

I said in that post that I don't really care what a 19/20 year old's ambition is. Stander wasn't happy with the treatment he was receiving - and that's entirely subjective to him - so he left for better conditions elsewhere. That's a mature career decision to be commended, and it would be in any other walk of life.

Anyone saying he went to Ireland with the intention of playing for Ireland is fabricating something or has inside information, he's never said it. Whatever can be said about his decision to play for Ireland three and a half years later does not apply to his decision to leave.

Wasn't happy with the treatment he received. Now that is very vague. That could be a lot of issues. It could even be something like he had disagreements with fellow players or how a coach/administrator or something else.

But that was just one team, the Bulls. And to be honest he was there at a time where there were a few issues at the Bulls and also had financial problems.

Why didn't he then maybe look at joining another franchise/club? I know about a lot of flankers smaller than him playing in SA and someone like Kwagga Smith is now even in the Springbok World Cup squad...

Stander's an issue because there are so many false narratives from both sides flying about the place. He wasn't brought to Ireland to play for Ireland and he didn't come here with that intention just because Heyneke Meyer thought he was a midget. He was recruited by Munster, the ridiculous three year residency is why he's playing for us, it's gone now. Stander is a moot point.

Once again, I have to reiterate, I have no issue with him playing for Munster, that's not the issue. And yeah, the residency rule is ridiculous, I think we all agree on that. But the issue is that the National teams jump at the chance to have players like that in their squad.

The only way to make this issue go away, and even then only partially, is to remove the situation where you have an advantage playing for one country over another. This means player welfare laws be totally reformed, match fees for internationals banned and the banning of policies requiring a player to reside in a country to play for them. If you give players no incentive but pride to play international rugby you're going to weed out any "mercenaries" (stupid term when everyone is getting paid) who'll be happy with their clubs.

Now you know just like I do that will never happen, the corporate wing of any rugby enterprise is just too strong to be overlooked. And the other issue is that while these guys play international rugby, they don't play domestic rugby for their clubs.

But NZ and to an extent SA has now introduced the "central contract" to find some sort of middle ground between club/country issues and the financial burden it might take on a player. The pay-for-play initiative is another thing which I think is a great idea, and the plan to pay players who represent the national team, rather a commission instead of a salary, to prevent the situation where a guy isn't selected because of poor form, but still get paid...

What I'm genuinely astonished by is that people want to restrict someone's opportunity to earn a living for a sport...

That's not what we are saying, but I understand your reasoning. I'm not denying Stander or any other player the right to make a living. Would he really be much worse off financially if he just played for Munster and not Ireland?

Would he have been more financially in ruin if he played for Munster and South Africa?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That is an incredibly convenient position to have given the side of the argument you happen to be defending.

I happen to think that there is a world of difference between helping people who can't help themselves and aiding someone to go from rich to richer. Academically and from a practical pov.

Convenient maybe, I think it's hard/impossible to have one without the other. We're talking about payment for services, not charity.

See that's the thing. I find it very, very hard believing you want a "purer" international competition while at the same time you are ok with CJ playing with you.

I don't believe a single non-irish in this thread would read/listen to CJ's story and think "yeah, that is what i want international rugby to be about".

Actually once he's an Irish citizen and hasn't played international rugby for another nation (I must reiterate that I don't count u20s because I don't think decisions as a teenager should tie you down for life, some will agree, some won't) I think a lot of people will think that's fair game. He's 7 years in Ireland now, he's bought property here, pays taxes, is a citizen, has settled down with his family and most his adult life has been in Ireland. He got in early definitely but that rule is fixed now.

I'm ok with Hughes or Tuilagi playing for England, and although I think it's a bit shady recruiting at academy level Vakatawa has certainly earned the right to play for France. The likes of Parkes, Kleyn and Reece are a bit different but the last of that era of residency players will qualify in the next 15 months.

Wasn't happy with the treatment he received. Now that is very vague. That could be a lot of issues. It could even be something like he had disagreements with fellow players or how a coach/administrator or something else.

But that was just one team, the Bulls. And to be honest he was there at a time where there were a few issues at the Bulls and also had financial problems.

Why didn't he then maybe look at joining another franchise/club? I know about a lot of flankers smaller than him playing in SA and someone like Kwagga Smith is now even in the Springbok World Cup squad...

Read it back, all I wrote was that he was unhappy in SA. I also wrote later that his unhappiness is entirely subjective to him, it doesn't matter if you think he had reason to be or not.

It hypothetically could have been that he hated living in SA his entire life and wanted out and it doesn't really make any difference. He got out because he thought it was the best thing for him and his now wife, nothing more, it was a decision that he'd "live or die" by and certainly not an easy one.

I have presented no narrative on Stander and I have no interest discussing it. I'm trying to argue my side totally based on fact and logic and not human emotion. I understand in your case it's hard because as you've said you feel your countryman has turned his back on your country. It's not something we don't experience in Ireland, we've lost soccer players to England and we lose Gaelic Footballers to professionalism in Aussie rules regularly. You have to put yourself in the players shoes and not base a 19 year olds decision on what you at whatever age you're at think is right.

Once again, I have to reiterate, I have no issue with him playing for Munster, that's not the issue. And yeah, the residency rule is ridiculous, I think we all agree on that. But the issue is that the National teams jump at the chance to have players like that in their squad.

...

That's not what we are saying, but I understand your reasoning. I'm not denying Stander or any other player the right to make a living. Would he really be much worse off financially if he just played for Munster and not Ireland?

Would he have been more financially in ruin if he played for Munster and South Africa?

He'd have had to leave Munster. Apart from rare occasions that are chosen on a case by case basis you can't give foreign players consecutive contracts in Ireland, it's why Ryan Pienaar had to leave Ulster. He's also on a central contract now which is more lucrative and would have got sizeable match fees to play for Ireland prior to that. These rules have also only become somewhat consistent in the last few years so he really had no idea what he was getting into.

Now you know just like I do that will never happen, the corporate wing of any rugby enterprise is just too strong to be overlooked. And the other issue is that while these guys play international rugby, they don't play domestic rugby for their clubs.

But NZ and to an extent SA has now introduced the "central contract" to find some sort of middle ground between club/country issues and the financial burden it might take on a player. The pay-for-play initiative is another thing which I think is a great idea, and the plan to pay players who represent the national team, rather a commission instead of a salary, to prevent the situation where a guy isn't selected because of poor form, but still get paid...

Yeah you're probably right, we both now that this same argument will be going in 10 and 20 years from now too unless world rugby does something out of the ordinary though. Considering they recently banned players being tied to a nation through their underage teams I doubt they'll go back on that, nor should they really*, and there doesn't seem to be much noise about extending the five year residency so they're going to have to find something elsewhere and there has been grumblings about uneven match fees in international rugby and player welfare.

*I'm saying this when the rule has massively disadvantaged Irish soccer with us losing former underage players to England, but they were kids and were only out for themselves thinking about the present.


Edit: anyway, I'm signing out of this thread. I was only really interested in Cruz' opinion on dual citizenship and got caught in something bigger. There was always going to be a few misunderstandings and disagreements and the only thing we really learn is that there's no way to please everyone... And that anyone who's ever called them Bundee O'Aki or CJ McStander with any degree of malice or seriousness is thick as pig ****!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Convenient maybe, I think it's hard/impossible to have one without the other. We're talking about payment for services, not charity.

Then let's extend that principle, say **** borders, passports and nationalities. Allow RUs to incentivize players to play for them without any limitation whatsoever.
We can even stop calling them national teams and call the teams Google, BMW, Shell and Budweiser and get more money out of that.

If what we are talking about is payment for services this way we could pay them even more.
Let's remove all the red tape and have nations purchase the best players money can buy. I'm sure that'll do wonders with the audience.

I must reiterate that I don't count u20s because I don't think decisions as a teenager should tie you down for life, some will agree, some won't)

First, he was not a teenager. He played the U20's world cup with 20 years of age.
Second, you bring age to the table. So being an adult is not the threshold in your book.
Where, exactly, do you draw the line then?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Convenient maybe, I think it's hard/impossible to have one without the other. We're talking about payment for services, not charity.



Actually once he's an Irish citizen and hasn't played international rugby for another nation (I must reiterate that I don't count u20s because I don't think decisions as a teenager should tie you down for life, some will agree, some won't) I think a lot of people will think that's fair game. He's 7 years in Ireland now, he's bought property here, pays taxes, is a citizen, has settled down with his family and most his adult life has been in Ireland. He got in early definitely but that rule is fixed now.

I'm ok with Hughes or Tuilagi playing for England, and although I think it's a bit shady recruiting at academy level Vakatawa has certainly earned the right to play for France. The likes of Parkes, Kleyn and Reece are a bit different but the last of that era of residency players will qualify in the next 15 months.


Read it back, all I wrote was that he was unhappy in SA. I also wrote later that his unhappiness is entirely subjective to him, it doesn't matter if you think he had reason to be or not.

It hypothetically could have been that he hated living in SA his entire life and wanted out and it doesn't really make any difference. He got out because he thought it was the best thing for him and his now wife, nothing more, it was a decision that he'd "live or die" by and certainly not an easy one.

I have presented no narrative on Stander and I have no interest discussing it. I'm trying to argue my side totally based on fact and logic and not human emotion. I understand in your case it's hard because as you've said you feel your countryman has turned his back on your country. It's not something we don't experience in Ireland, we've lost soccer players to England and we lose Gaelic Footballers to professionalism in Aussie rules regularly. You have to put yourself in the players shoes and not base a 19 year olds decision on what you at whatever age you're at think is right.



He'd have had to leave Munster. Apart from rare occasions that are chosen on a case by case basis you can't give foreign players consecutive contracts in Ireland, it's why Ryan Pienaar had to leave Ulster. He's also on a central contract now which is more lucrative and would have got sizeable match fees to play for Ireland prior to that. These rules have also only become somewhat consistent in the last few years so he really had no idea what he was getting into.


Yeah you're probably right, we both now that this same argument will be going in 10 and 20 years from now too unless world rugby does something out of the ordinary though. Considering they recently banned players being tied to a nation through their underage teams I doubt they'll go back on that, nor should they really*, and there doesn't seem to be much noise about extending the five year residency so they're going to have to find something elsewhere and there has been grumblings about uneven match fees in international rugby and player welfare.

*I'm saying this when the rule has massively disadvantaged Irish soccer with us losing former underage players to England, but they were kids and were only out for themselves thinking about the present.


Edit: anyway, I'm signing out of this thread. I was only really interested in Cruz' opinion on dual citizenship and got caught in something bigger. There was always going to be a few misunderstandings and disagreements and the only thing we really learn is that there's no way to please everyone... And that anyone who's ever called them Bundee O'Aki or CJ McStander with any degree of malice or seriousness is thick as pig ****!

All fair and good. I think this debate will never end, and that's just because of the several different ways people are looking at such a complex issue. Sorry I dragged you back in to this I just felt there were some unclear remarks being made.

It's just that the residency rule, is basically a long-term import business. Ask a guy from another poorer country to come and live and play in your country. You import him, and pay for services (his talent). So the foreign apple tastes better than the local ones, this import is starting to show a lot of fruit, seems like the risk in the investment is going to pay off. So he's been here long enough, let's make this foreign import a localised product. Better yet, now that it's a localised product, let's nationalise it and make it a flagship product.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm not? Haha! I'd never want to be one either, I'd become drunk with phoney power!

I thought you said you moved my post to another thread. Did i miss something?
How did you do that if you were not a mod?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

All fair and good. I think this debate will never end, and that's just because of the several different ways people are looking at such a complex issue. Sorry I dragged you back in to this I just felt there were some unclear remarks being made.

Seconded. I think we all understand where the difference lies and none of us is "wrong". We just want different things.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I thought you said you moved my post to another thread. Did i miss something?
How did you do that if you were not a mod?

I just replied to your post in here. This thread was started by a user to avoid this debate sending other threads down this rabbit hole, its a user led thing that I'm more than happy to help with!

 

[WaterboySA]

Personally, I don't have ANY issues with CJ playing for Ireland. He's not playing a game, he's earning a living for him and his family, and should be free to choose where he wants to work. End of story.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I just replied to your post in here. This thread was started by a user to avoid this debate sending other threads down this rabbit hole, its a user led thing that I'm more than happy to help with!

LOL, i was 100% sure you moved my post. My bad.

 

[rugga658]

I just replied to your post in here. This thread was started by a user to avoid this debate sending other threads down this rabbit hole, its a user led thing that I'm more than happy to help with!

I can confirm it was ME who was the catalyst for this lively discussion in the thread

Long may it Continue.........

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I get animated on this topic, I simply don't see the value in international competition if a team, like many in the Rugby League world cup, have no obvious relationship to the country whose strip they are wearing. I find it embarrassing, disingenuous and, in established nations, counterproductive to incentivise taking talent from other unions over rearing your own. It allows unions to not even bother making an effort to tap into talent outside of their geographic or demographic strongholds and spread the game domestically.

However, there have been two huge developments in the past couple of years that should prevent this issue from becoming completely farcical in the years to come.

i) residency extended to five years (a huge deal given the injury rate / attrition) and should substantially curtail the amount of residency players making international 23s. 5 years is a long time and if I lived abroad for five years I'd start to think of it as a second home. If someone living in Scotland for 5 years wants to feel Scottish then I welcome them and think it is entirely reasonable.

ii) SA & Oz saying any player playing abroad is now eligible for selection. If I am from those countries playing abroad i now know the door is still open if I can perform well enough. I think that makes it a lot harder to pick another country. Prior to that you could tell yourself it was your unions fault for closing the door on you for chasing a good living. I hate that those unions have felt they have had to take that decision for financial reasons, but the silver lining may be less residency players.


For me the main outstanding issues would be resolved by the following that should be perfectly legal:

i) you are captured if representing country at u20s or 7s. No exceptions.

ii) scrap the grandparent rule.

iii) forbid unions from employing people to approach players raised / nurtured by other unions.


Ending on more hypothetical notes I'd also:

a) make the above rules apply to international coaches (side effect of encouraging unions to raise domestic coaching standards). It is a international team, why not have the same rules?

b) make any nation exempt from all of the above if they are denied access to the 6N or RC, as the above rules would assist in closing the gap if implemented at Tiers 2 & 3. If the 'big boys' want a two tier system, then I'd want World Rugby to use that disparity to the advantage of the global game.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

After me calming down about this I had to watch a former England u20 captain start as scrum half for Italy. Not a happy bunny about that. I wonder if he had even set foot in Italy prior to RWC selection.

 

[rugga658]

After me calming down about this I had to watch a former England u20 captain start as scrum half for Italy. Not a happy bunny about that. I wonder if he had even set foot in Italy prior to RWC selection.

Careful Bruce The Irish mob will come along & call you Racist/Xenophobic/Bigoted....

Bralley is a 2nd rate Englishmen who has an Italian "Granny"
He might have gone to Rome for a romantic weekend

It gets worse The USA Full Back played for England U20 side in 2013 Today he played against England This guy has a granny from California

It disgusts me to see such players pollute International Rugby

 

[rugga658]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...s/news-story/3b324e87c2a621040bbe97c20ee7d1d7

Well said Mr Thorburn

Scots & Japs are deplorable in how they acquire payers for International Rugby