The Pumas should play the 6 Nations

[Jaguares]

This is my wishful thinking, rather than something that can happen. There really is no team in the world able to play 6 games in a row against 3 giants of the SH without leaving damaged. I think it's too tough test for our team and for any team.

The Rugby Championship not brought any benefit to Argentine rugby so far. It has not increased the number of rugby players, has not increased the number of rugby teams, simply increased the hatred against our national team and against rugby. Just increased hatred against rugby players, as all football supporters expect this tournament to celebrate the defeats of our team.

I think it's not healthy for our rugby continue in this competition. The process will be long and very very slow. Currently NZ and SA have domestic competitions such as the ITM Cup (NZ) and the Currie Cup (SA). ARU is building its own domestic championship (NRC) also each have 5 Super Rugby franchises. Australia doesn't have a stable domestic league, but they have the Rugby League's professional championship biggest of the world, and although this may be negative for Union, also in a sense is beneficial for Rugby Union, as it keeps a lot of athletes with similar rugby skills, because technical skills between the two sports are very similar, except for some very specific positions as the front row in the Union (That explains why Australia is better than countries with more tradition in the Union and more Union players like England and France). We'll have our first SR franchise in 2016, there is very much difference between us and them.

For example, England in June tests against ABs played very well, especially the first two games. They were in a very high standard and made them feel the rigor but they couldn't win. And we're talking about England. We can also talk of Wales, who lost his 2 tests against SA this year and has a large amount of loss to Australia in the last years. Ireland at a good time was crushed against Australia in the last year, France was crushed by Australia in 2/3 tests. It really is very difficult and this year will be the toughest of ALL for the Pumas because the Aussies have regained their mystique, and now they have a team that truly scary.

I think historical beatings come, we will be the tip of the barrel of Argentine sports. The casual supporters don't understand the situation, they just enjoy the lost of the Pumas, 'The upper middle class children'. They are waiting for this moment to say: "You aren't competitive". "You lose ALL the games". I think this is not beneficial for the Argentine rugby is only feed our enemies. I also believe that Europeans are to blame for this for not accepting the Pumas in their tournament. I think it's more logical to play against teams on our level, since they themselves suffer when faced with the 3 giants of South.

The IRB must have taken up the issue and had to have forced the Europeans to include the Pumas in their tournament. It would have been easy to include a team more , just ask the Pumas play their first three games in Europe and then play their last three games in South America. Only three European teams would have to travel to South America once per tournament and after the trip get a bye round.

Well, this is my catharsis because the next weeks will be tough for rugby supporters in Argentina. I'll have to hit some football supporters in the coming weeks, my patience is running out and it's difficult to talk about rugby with casual fans.

 

[psychic duck]

"Not brought any benefit to Argentine rugby" is an utterly silly argument as the UAR are making record profits from participating in the RC, far more than they would have been doing otherwise in the past.

Also the 6 Nations is a European tournament. Good luck getting teams to want to travel half way across the world in the midst of the season, and proposing completely different time zones to broadcasters. There's a reason why when Argentina actually applied to join the 6N back around in 2006/07 period, they intended on basing themselves in Spain, and why it was pretty sensible they didn't play in the tournament as well.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Wait till after the series, CS. Maybe the Pumas surprise. Logic tells me also that this will be the toughest series yet for Argentina but you never know. This is sport and while Rugby is a sport where upsets are rarer than most sports they still do happen.

And lets not gloss over what Argentina has achieved so far. It's only been two years and you've already managed a draw with SA, something only England has managed of NH sides in the same time period. On top of that there have been very tight performances even if not wins and while the casual Argentine spectator will not look at the context there can be no better exposure for your players and in the long run it can only be beneficial ITO the quality of rugby you play if not the results right now. Getting Argentiine players in Super rugby will only hasten that.

I can't see other arrangements really be more beneficial to Argentina. Joining Europe makes little sense ITO geographic and commercial integrity to me and your players will be less available playing for European clubs than they would be playing in Super rugby. Probably more likely to get injured as well.

The other route is joining Canada, the USA and possibly Uruguay in an 'Americas emerging' type of tournament but there you will be top dog and though I am certain the two big North American nations will be getting ever more competitive rapidly you will be at a disadvantage ITO the quality of opposition for the short term.

Nah, CS. Argentina should stay in the RC. Look long term, mate!

 

[Jaguares]

"Not brought any benefit to Argentine rugby" is an utterly silly argument as the UAR are making record profits from participating in the RC, far more than they would have been doing otherwise in the past.

Also the 6 Nations is a European tournament. Good luck getting teams to want to travel half way across the world in the midst of the season, and proposing completely different time zones to broadcasters. There's a reason why when Argentina actually applied to join the 6N back around in 2006/07 period, they intended on basing themselves in Spain, and why it was pretty sensible they didn't play in the tournament as well.

In the early years there was an increase of money, but that has a limit. This year haven't yet been tickets sold out for any game, when in previous years the tickets for the game against ABs were sold out in a few days. This is because the casual supporters have lost interest in the tournament because of the media campaign against rugby from other sports that take advantage of defeats to discredit a sport that grows more than their own sports.

This year includes a new city, Salta is replacing Rosario because last year a few tickets were sold in the Rosario's game. Then the increase in money has peaked, we are now losing the casual supporters who were interested in the tournament, which means fewer tickets sold and less money. And we won't recover them easily because they are waiting victories, something that is almost impossible for us in the next 5 to 10 years.

About Pumas in the 6 Nations, the Rugby Championship is a tournament between South America, Oceania and Africa, there are 16 hours between the time zones and the tournament works well. Then of course it's possible to include one foreign team in 6 Nations.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i think what is best in my opinion is make an Amercia's cup including teams like Canada, USA, Argentina maybe uruguay etc. and the pacific cup should involve teams like Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Japan etc.

 

[psychic duck]

In the early years there was an increase of money, but that has a limit. This year haven't yet been tickets sold out for any game, when in previous years the tickets for the game against ABs were sold out in a few days. This is because the casual supporters have lost interest in the tournament because of the media campaign against rugby from other sports that take advantage of defeats to discredit a sport that grows more than their own sports.

This year includes a new city, Salta is replacing Rosario because last year a few tickets were sold in the Rosario's game. Then the increase in money has peaked, we are now losing the casual supporters who were interested in the tournament, which means fewer tickets sold and less money. And we won't recover them easily because they are waiting victories, something that is almost impossible for us in the next 5 to 10 years.

About Pumas in the 6 Nations, the Rugby Championship is a tournament between South America, Oceania and Africa, there are 16 hours between the time zones and the tournament works well. Then of course it's possible to include one foreign team in 6 Nations.

Firstly this so called "media campaign against rugby" I highly suspect is just bull****, they probably aren't just apologists for mediocrity like Phelan and Agulla as you are.

The All Blacks would attract more fans to Argentina than any side Argentina would actually beat that's for sure. And far more than the total of 0 fans in Argentine stadia that would happen if they played 6 Nations instead. TV revenue and sponsorships is a large amount of the increased revenue as well, both which have increased.

And as for the 6 Nations, it's not the Rugby Championship. You are simply never going to get that amount of intercontinental travel in mid season for a round robin tournament in the middle of the club season, hence why the UAR applied with their base in Spain.

 

[Jaguares]

Firstly this so called "media campaign against rugby" I highly suspect is just bull****, they probably aren't just apologists for mediocrity like Phelan and Agulla as you are.

The All Blacks would attract more fans to Argentina than any side Argentina would actually beat that's for sure. And far more than the total of 0 fans in Argentine stadia that would happen if they played 6 Nations instead. TV revenue and sponsorships is a large amount of the increased revenue as well, both which have increased.

And as for the 6 Nations, it's not the Rugby Championship. You are simply never going to get that amount of intercontinental travel in mid season for a round robin tournament in the middle of the club season, hence why the UAR applied with their base in Spain.

Why the hell you're always angry?? Is it impossible to talk quietly with you?. It's simply impossible to talk with you, you're always angry. It seems you hate life. You must learn to talk properly as other users like ImScotty, Sanzar or Stormer2010.

With regard to what you say, Wales were unable to beat Australia in the last 9 games, although Australia had very bad moments, that is also mediocrity as you say.

 

[psychic duck]

Why the hell you're always angry?? Is it impossible to talk quietly with you?. It's simply impossible to talk to you, you're always angry. It seems you hate life.

With regard to what you say, Wales were unable to beat Australia in the last 9 games, although Australia had very bad moments, that is also mediocrity as you say.

Unable to back up bull**** yet again and resorts to bringing up irrelevant remarks on other nations.

 

[Big Ewis]

Why the hell you're always angry?? Is it impossible to talk quietly with you?. It's simply impossible to talk with you, you're always angry. It seems you hate life. You must learn to talk properly as other users like ImScotty, Sanzar or Stormer2010.

* and Big Ewis. I love to talk properly, are you INSANE for leaving me out of that group ?!!!! I'LL KILL YOUU !!!!!!
Oh and to answer your question about excited dick, yes. Yes it is impossible to talk "quietly" with him because he's obviously got shiit to fix in his life and is mentally unstable. I should know, first hand - trust me. Buddy, do what I did. Block em. One of the best things I've done on this forum, along with talking properly. I LOVE to do *that*.

 

[Jaguares]

Unable to back up bull**** yet again and resorts to bringing up irrelevant remarks on other nations.

Do you see? Whenever you are angry!. I have to compare Argentina with other nations because of what this is about. If Wales is playing the 6 Nations for more than 100 years ago and can't beat SANZAR's teams. Why Argentina should I?

 

[FrenchFan]

I agree. Take our spot. Our players will get the break they need.

And it'll still be called the 6 Nations.

 

[Thingimubob]

Do you see? Whenever you are angry!. I have to compare Argentina with other nations because of what this is about. If Wales is playing the 6 Nations for more than 100 years ago and can't beat SANZAR's teams. Why Argentina should I?

Wait what?! :huh: what has Wales' recent difficulty vs the SH sides got to do with the legitimate problems opposing Argentina playing in the 6 Nation?

It would be so ridiculously awkward for the teams to add a huge flight from Europe down to Argentina, and vice versa.The Rugby Championship is separate from the main club season (for the most part anyway), while the 6 Nations is slap bang in the middle of it, making any long inter-continental distances difficult to fit in, especially when factoring in recovery and jetlag.

as psychicduck pointed out, the only truly feasible plan rugby wise would to have them based in Spain, but to repeat him again, that would mean 0 bums on Argentinian seats. Kinda defeats the purpose!

Can you give us some sort of model you'd like to see, maybe even some sort of fixture list or something? Would be much better than you randomly shooting off about Wales' record vs Australia...

 

[Big Ewis]

I agree. Take our spot. Our players will get the break they need.

And it'll still be called the 6 Nations.

aaaaah, but through your humor I find the patterns of your innermost, deepest subconscious thoughts.
Muahaha.......muaaahahahaaaaa......MUAH...*cough* ....MUAHAHAA......

MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA !!!...*cough* *cough* goddamn it !!....

 

[Jaguares]

Wait what?! :huh: what has Wales' recent difficulty vs the SH sides got to do with the legitimate problems opposing Argentina playing in the 6 Nation?

It would be so ridiculously awkward for the teams to add a huge flight from Europe down to Argentina, and vice versa.The Rugby Championship is separate from the main club season (for the most part anyway), while the 6 Nations is slap bang in the middle of it, making any long inter-continental distances difficult to fit in, especially when factoring in recovery and jetlag.

as psychicduck pointed out, the only truly feasible plan rugby wise would to have them based in Spain, but to repeat him again, that would mean 0 bums on Argentinian seats. Kinda defeats the purpose!

Can you give us some sort of model you'd like to see, maybe even some sort of fixture list or something? Would be much better than you randomly shooting off about Wales' record vs Australia...

Example of 7 Nations 2015:

Round 1:

England v Argentina in Twickenham

Round 2:

Wales v Argentina in Cardiff

Round 3:

Ireland v Argentina in Dublin

Round 4:

Argentina v Italy in Rosario

Next round: Bye to Italy

Round 5:

Argentina v Scotland in Mendoza

Next round: Bye to Scotland

Round 6:

Argentina v France in La Plata

7 Nations 2016:

Round 1:

France v Argentina in Paris

Round 2:

Scotland v Argentina in Edinburgh

Round 3:

Italy v Argentina in Rome

Round 4:

Argentina v England in La Plata

Next round: Bye to England

Round 5:

Argentina v Ireland in Mendoza

Next round: Bye to Ireland

Round 6:

Argentina v Wales in Rosario

With this way everyone wins. Each team travels to South America once every two years and the next round having traveled have rest. While Argentina is installed in Europe for a few weeks to play 3 games and then play at home against 3 European teams.

Is it an impossible format? I think not, when you consider that today in Super Rugby teams have to make looooong trips and the tournament works well. It's a realistic format and would benefit to the rugby world because it would make the tournament even more interesting.

We will have full stadiums here in Argentina, as the team would win several games per year and have a realistic chance of winning the tournament, the victories will attract crowds and casual fans will be interested in the sport even more. A single format can also be beneficial to ALL.

The only impediment to this happening is the political will and tradition. Europeans refuse to enter an foreign for their tournament, Argentina has potential to be better than Italy and Scotland. Italy participates in the tournament for many years and never contributed anything to the cause, if Argentina is supported could be more competitive than they and would be beneficial for the tournament. In recent years we have beaten England at Twickenham, we have beaten France 2 times in their own WC (when they were the 6N champions) we beat Ireland in two WC and also beat Wales in Cardiff. Maybe tournament organizers are afraid that a Latin team to win a European tournament. The inclusion of Argentina in the 6N would only be beneficial for the tournament, you have to let go of stupid stereotypes and help grow our sport. Argentina is the most important place in America for rugby, the growth of Argentine rugby would beneficial for our sport worldwide. The Rugby Championship competition isn't realistic for our rugby.

Everything we do in this tournament is receiving blow after blow against the 3 monsters of South. And casual supporters move away stadiums because they are unwilling to support a losing team and then rugby in Argentina isn't growing.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

yeah but conrad you'll have new zealand to worry about now, the rugby championship is getting close

 

[Thingimubob]

Example of 7 Nations 2015:

Round 1:

England v Argentina in Twickenham

Round 2:

Wales v Argentina in Cardiff

Round 3:

Ireland v Argentina in Dublin

Round 4:

Argentina v Italy in Rosario

Next round: Bye to Italy

Round 5:

Argentina v Scotland in Mendoza

Next round: Bye to Scotland

Round 6:

Argentina v France in La Plata

7 Nations 2016:

Round 1:

France v Argentina in Paris

Round 2:

Scotland v Argentina in Edinburgh

Round 3:

Italy v Argentina in Rome

Round 4:

Argentina v England in La Plata

Next round: Bye to England

Round 5:

Argentina v Ireland in Mendoza

Next round: Bye to Ireland

Round 6:

Argentina v Wales in Rosario

With this way everyone wins. Each team travels to South America once every two years and the next round having traveled have rest. While Argentina is installed in Europe for a few weeks to play 3 games and then play at home against 3 European teams.

Is it an impossible format? I think not, when you consider that today in Super Rugby teams have to make looooong trips and the tournament works well. It's a realistic format and would benefit to the rugby world because it would make the tournament even more interesting.

We will have full stadiums here in Argentina, as the team would win several games per year and have a realistic chance of winning the tournament, the victories will attract crowds and casual fans will be interested in the sport even more. A single format can also be beneficial to ALL.

The only impediment to this happening is the political will and tradition. Europeans refuse to enter an foreign for their tournament, Argentina has potential to be better than Italy and Scotland. Italy participates in the tournament for many years and never contributed anything to the cause, if Argentina is supported could be more competitive than they and would be beneficial for the tournament. In recent years we have beaten England at Twickenham, we have beaten France 2 times in their own WC (when they were the 6N champions) we beat Ireland in two WC and also beat Wales in Cardiff. Maybe tournament organizers are afraid that a Latin team to win a European tournament. The inclusion of Argentina in the 6N would only be beneficial for the tournament, you have to let go of stupid stereotypes and help grow our sport. Argentina is the most important place in America for rugby, the growth of Argentine rugby would beneficial for our sport worldwide. The Rugby Championship competition isn't realistic for our rugby.

Everything we do in this tournament is receiving blow after blow against the 3 monsters of South. And casual supporters move away stadiums because they are unwilling to support a losing team and then rugby in Argentina isn't growing.

I agree, it could possibly work with Argentina playing 3 straight games at home and three straight games in Europe, would make the logistics that bit easier. However, I'm gonna assume that your model there runs for 6 consecutive weeks? The actual 6 Nations runs for roughly 7, due to there being 2 BYE weekends for ALL teams, which honestly is required. There has been talk for quite a few years now of players playing too many games, making player burnout a bigger issue and putting more emphasis on making sure they can recover after their games. This means with 4 teams having to take 2 long distance flights every year, you'd need those rest weeks along with the 1 team BYE's. Problem with adding them is that it would lengthen the club season by another couple of weeks, shortening the off-season even further - especially for the Top 14.

Simple fact is, without a massive restructure of the European, maybe even global rugby calendar (which arguably is something that is needed anyway) Argentina can't really join the 6 Nations because of simple logistics. It has nothing to do with tournament organisers being scared that Argentina could win it, it's simply just too awkward.

Also, you need to look at the long term benefits of Argentina being in the RC. They're playing the best teams in the world twice every year, that's eventually gonna help them. Italy, while nowhere near champion material (especially after a very poor 2014), have still improved massively since their inclusion in the 6 Nations.
Just look at Wales too, why do you we've had so many goes at the big SH 3 over the past few years? Gatland has always said to be the best, you have to test yourself against the best as much as you can. Argentina are doing just that, and it will shine through at some point.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm with Psychic Duck on this one. It's too impractical to go another route.

Sounds to me that Conrad just doesn't like the fact that the Argentinians keeps on losing in the Rugby Championship. Which is okay, as nobody likes losing.

But, it seems like it's just another bickering and moaning thread by Conrad. It feels like this thread was already on the forum, just the other day. It seems that Conrad's attempt to get Argentina to play against the NH teams, are purely because they have a chance of actually winning a few games every year. But that is not the correct way of going about this. The Argentina Rugby Union now gets a lot of money from the RC, so it would be smart IMHO to save that money up, and when there is enough start the groundwork for a proper domestic league. It's not necessary to rush into it, and planning it properly will have a much better outcome. Thinking long term has always been a better move than just a quickie short term solution.

 

[The big Kangaroo]

It sounds to me like your worried about the reputation of the pumas being tarnished by losing ever game every year and not winning over new casual sports fans. But im sure rugby in Argentina does not need them to improve. The Money Reasons have already being mentioned. With a large population I would imagine that there is still allot of potential growth for rugby compared to a country like wales were the game wont get bigger meaning that eventually you would hope that over time they will become more successful than some traditional rugby powers. Im a big fan of leaving the 6 nations as it I enjoying watching the stadiums being packed with fans each week plus The Rugby championship is a better format than the Tri nations with the one home one away game. I predict this tournament will be the hardest yet for the pumas thoa with SA and AUS looking better than previous years.

 

[Big Ewis]

Italy, while nowhere near champion material (especially after a very poor 2014), have still improved massively since their inclusion in the 6 Nations.

have they, though ? I know they played a good one in Cardiff this year, but they've been God awful for the past year plus. Taking POUNDINGS from Samoa, S.A., Australia (home), France, England (home), Ireland...and more recently *losing all their games in Fiji, Samoa and Japan*. There's no doubt Italy had progressed up til this point, but their pool of players needs to follow. If you don't produce the players, it doesn't matter who you play.
There isn't a constant progression of your team just because you play strong opposition. More into the topic of Argentina, they themselves are Gods of Rugby for the rest of Latina America sides which they play, and annihilate/obliterate/pulverize each and every year. And this has been going on for decades, and those other sides aren't looking to improve or at least not in a constructive, substantial way. They still get ripped apart with similar scores to decades ago. The Pumas *may*, in theory, forever be the team that loses every game in TRC every single year. They have to insure the players keep coming, and those are well coached. You don't just 'magically', or automatically get better just by the sole exercise of facing harsh opposition, de facto. There's aaaaall the rest that needs to follow.

 

[Thingimubob]

have they, though ? I know they played a good one in Cardiff this year, but they've been God awful for the past year plus. Taking POUNDINGS from Samoa, S.A., Australia (home), France, England (home), Ireland...and more recently *losing all their games in Fiji, Samoa and Japan*. There's no doubt Italy had progressed up til this point, but their pool of players needs to follow. If you don't produce the players, it doesn't matter who you play.

Like I said, 2014 has been a write off for them, pretty shoddy even by their standards. However, they've certainly been much more competitive over the last few years than that. Couple of wins vs France and Ireland in the 6N, pushed England very close in Twickenham (got screwed out of a try by the ref in that game too, despite the touch judge's advice). I know these could be one offs, but in general the standard of their performances have gone up since they first joined.