South Africa's poor performance in SR

[SomeOke]

Anyway this has been tumbling around him head for a while and I'd like to have a discussion about South Africa's super rugby performance this season:

The Sharks, Bulls, Stormers, Lions, and Cheetahs placed 3rd, 9th, 11th, 12th, 14th.
With one team in the top three (last in the top three) and 4 in the bottom half of the table. Two years ago we had 3 in the top six and it seems things have just been deteriorating from there.

Now it's still hasn't been long enough to really call this a problem, and we could blame injuries or bad luck, but to me it's not really acceptable.

Is the reason the mass exodus of players from our unions? With HM selecting players overseas more and more players are going to the NH, and that's probably not even close to being as big a problem as our weak currency, allowing French and English sides to offer players literally 5-10 times more than they earn in SA, Habana is getting paid near 50 000 Euros a month with roughly translates to a s#!t ton of money in SA, a sum which none of our unions can come close to paying.

Anyway is this the problem? Did we just have a bad season? How will this affect our national side?

Personally I don't think it's going to hurt the Springboks that much as we're essentially having our senior players fostered elsewhere and allowing our home unions to develop young talent, but is it acceptable to field "2nd" string sides in Super Rugby especially since our talent is now going to be further stretched with a 6th side, it feels disrespectful to NZ and Aus, and perhaps we should just be moving overseas for our domestic competition.

Maybe I'm overreacting and we'll come out stronger in the end, what are your thoughts on this? I'd like to stress that I'm in no way frantic or insulting SA rugby I'd just like to have a discussion about where domestic SA rugby is headed.

 

[Big Ewis]

well that's obviously because we've bought all your players out. But who cares anyways, right ? From what I understand, clubs are just something to watch n follow conveniently during the year and that's that, but it's all about the Boks and the Tri-Nations and World Cups and test Rugby really.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I personally don't think it will have an effect on the Springboks. The reason for saying this is that the individuals who gets selected for the Boks, had pretty good seasons for their SR teams.

I think many teams had a defect in their team dynamic. Take the Bulls, they were undefeated at home, but lost all their games away, they had a major problem in their loose forwards and had at least 5 injuries in the flankers and 8th man position. They didn't have a fetcher and had to play a lock at no. 8, while trying to get a blindside flanker to convert to openside, which failed miserably.

With that, the coaches went through a lull. Ludeke and Drotske especially. They used the same old tactics which worked in the past, but doesn't work as effectively anymore. But as has been stated before in other threads, changes are coming in that department.

As for the Lions, I think we shouldn't be too harsh on them. They didn't play SR at all last year, and they did very well with a very young squad. They went above expectation, and even avoided the promition/relegation battle which awaits the Cheetahs vs the Kings.

It's my personal opinion that this was just a poor season, and that we will become stronger from this. Sometimes a step backwards is needed to take 2 steps forwards.

 

[RoosTah]

It ebbs and flows - Super Rugby is a tough tournament. In 2012 Australia had one team in the Finals, the kiwis had two and the South Africans had 3 - and back then the SARU was complaining about the weak Australian conference giving the Australian teams an advantage.

 

[SomeOke]

I do agree with you Heineken it's to early to diagnose SA as dead, but the reality is there may be a shift coming. Johan Goosen is now confirmed to be off to France, and he's another example of a young player attempting to make his career in France as opposed a polished player trying to make some money before retirement.

I was opposed to the idea for the longest time thinking that our rugby might deteriorate and maybe that still true but we may need to embrace the NH and it's money, we can only fight against the current for so long. "Privatizing" SA rugby and removing it from our politics may be a blessing in disguise.

 

[nickdnz]

I think SA's change in selection policy is clearly the worst thing that can happen - which I've stated continuously. What is worst is that HM seems completely happy to select overseas based players as freely as domestic ones. Yes South Africa had an exodus of players before (as does NZ), but now it's really at an all new level. Players who aren't even capped can go overseas and get in the Springbok frame, and if not hold off for an opportunity to play for overseas national side. I think it is really effecting the depth of South African rugby..

 

[smartcooky]

It ebbs and flows - Super Rugby is a tough tournament. In 2012 Australia had one team in the Finals, the kiwis had two and the South Africans had 3 - and back then the SARU was complaining about the weak Australian conference giving the Australian teams an advantage.

I still think the Aussie conference is weak. Look at the points differences, and particularly the strength of Waratahs compared with the rest of the Aussies

AUS Conference - 83
SAF Conference - 94
NZL Conference + 177

The Waratahs finished on +209, but over 2/3 of that (+140) of that came from the 8 matches against Aussie teams, and 1/3 (+69) from the 8 matches against SAF and NZL teams. Compare that with say, the Crusaders; +115 against AUS & SAF teams, +8 against NZ Teams


7 of the Waratahs 10 bonus points came against Aussie teams (one of them a losing bonus)

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'd like to make a number of points.

Yes, 2012 we had 3 teams in the top 6 but you can't say thiings deteriorated from there as the very next year the conference as a collective had it's best year yet (collectively).

A number of factors led to this year in particular being poor;

- Aussies and NZ sides were more competitive than usual; here I am speaking of the Force (a side packing 8 SA players!) and Highlander's improvements in particular

- the Cheetahs decided to drop their defense coach for the year and went from play-off hopefulls to narrowly avoiding the wooden spoon purely because of their defensive frailties (never being able to field their 1st choice backrow didn't help- Labuschagne the find of last season out all season and Brussow out for half the tourney)

- The Lions are just back after being out of SR and losing a lot of talent because of their situation. Kudu's for replacing a lot of talent but they should not be replacing rather than stocking up and filling holes if they want to seriously compete. Timing and politics have not been kind to the Lions. Ending 12th with the hand they where dealt is a fantastic result and they scuppered both the Bulls and Sharks at home. Add 4 points for the Bulls and Sharks and the Bulls would be in the finals and the Sharks be in that critical 2nd spot assure of a home semi!

- speaking of injuries, the Stormers and Sharks were the hardest hit along with to a lesser extent the Chiefs. Now the Sharks and Chiefs made the cut but few would argue they've looked as threatening as previous campaigns whereas the Stormers just never had any form of consistency and played without our two best players in captain JdV and world XV Etzebeth on top of not having our first choice 9 or 10 the whole season. Also no Gio Aplon for most of the season and our young Bok frontrow either.. a dire situation for any side.

- The Bulls had other problems though; they have had a mass exodus of senior star players in the 2013 campaign (Matfield, Steenkamp, FdP, Botha), stock senior players (Olivier, Kirchner, Ralepelle) and then right after an exodus of players entering their prime and other senior players out or injured for this year; no Juandre Kruger, Jano Vermaak, Morne Steyn, Arno Botha, Deon Stegman, Pierre Spies, Dewald and Jacques Potgieter (performing amazingly for another Aussie side topping the log!) among others.

Which brings me to another problem which is the lack of players aged between 23-28 in our sides. That is the backbone missing and playing overseas. I heard somewhere that we have close to 300 senior pro rugby players playing overseas particularly in France's Top14 and Pro D2. So we have team with youth coming through (some of them also ****ing off North now ala Paul Willemse) and a few senior players but we are missing that backbone of players aged 23-28 that bring balance to a team, add that necessary depth and is the axis around which those young/old players should revolve; our teams just don't have that.

Game plans also need to be looked at. If you look at our teams it is the more devensively minded teams that 1) lose more players to injury which creates a viscous circle and 2) bonus points is a thing that our teams aren't earning for a large part because of our approach to the game at this level. We need to adapt or accept we are going to have to win 2 more games than a team earning a BP with every win or loss to top them.

Politics is a major hamper to SA rugby at all levels. I am not even going to go into the quota for age grade sides and the politics at the different unions particularly at WP and the Cheetahs but just at an socio/economic level and with the minister of sport and president of the SARU stating efeectively that white players will not make sides necessarily even if they are the best... on top of the situation in the other spheres of life in SA. I can't blame players leaving as it is their profession and lets face it, all white SAcans are making plans for leaving even if not today as a back up so why not our sport stars also?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Agree with you Stormer. And in my mind these are the biggest factors that have arised.

But the other factor is the Coaches. The Bulls, Cheetahs and Stormers have had the same coaches for the last 3/4/5 years. Frans Ludeke, Naka Drotske and Allistair Coetzee. IMHO, all 3 of them have reached their sell by dates now. I think Naka has reached his sell by date already last year, but he keeps hanging around thanx to his buddies.

Allistair and Frans came with great ideas and innovation, but they have now been worked out. Allistair in my mind must be just a defence coach. that is his forte, and he should stick to it. The longer he remains head coach at the Stormers, the less tries they score, which is something very unusual when you look at the players they have. Maybe the Stormers must do the same as the All Blacks did in rotating the head coach and assistant coaches, maybe give Fleck a go as head coach. As for Ludeke, I think he must step down, and get the new guys in to have a go. The Bulls shouldn't use the excuse of player exodus anymore, as they have been hampered by that since 2011. They should be used to this by now. And yet, their scouting and development teams just keeps on bringing in great young prospects and they make sure these guys stay there for at least 4 years. The Bulls have the players, they just need a new structure and guidance. And like we have said before, the Bulls play better when their is that "family"-vibe in the camp. Something that has been absent.

Another factor to consider are the outside factors, things like the Oscar Pistorius Trial. I know that this trial had a big influence on the Bulls. Oscar was friends with a bunch of the guys at the Bulls. Francois Hougaard's name was the only one that popped up regularly as he appeared in a video alongside Pistorius, and was also on the roll of witnesses, he even missed a couple of training sessions, as he had to be prepped for court in case they needed him, which then eventually didn't happen.

But to come back to my point. I think 2014 was just a poor season, and that we will bounce back.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Coaching/game plan should not be underestimated, Heineken, you are right but I had a rethink and despite that and the injuries the main problem regarding SA teams is really is the amount of SA talent not in Super rugby (the rest are factors but bordering on excuses and not as critical). To illustrate;

1 Heinke van der Merwe arguably top scrummiger in the Top 14 even though Guthro Steenkamp has the name, Wian du Preez, JC Janse van Rensburg, Schalk van der Merwe, Wicus Blaauw, Allen Dell, Schalk Ferreira
2 Schalk Brits, Craig Burden, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Richardt Strauss all 4 test class, Matthew Dobson
3 Eugene van Staaden doing really well in France, Michael Coetzee now a French international WP Nel, Brian Mujati, BJ Botha all 3 test class Herbst on his way to Ulster and i forgot Jacobie Adriaanse, Peet du Plessis and am sure I am forgetting others.
4 Bakkies Botha, Johan Muller, Gerhard Mostert, Francois van der Merwe, Anton Bresler, Rynhardt Landman, Deald Senekal, Jandre Marais, Peet probably following
5 Juandre Kruger, Andries Bekker, Allister Hargreaves, Franco van der Merwe, Quinn Roux (someone I saw forming a great partnership with Etzebeth at WP but now an Irish project player), Danie Rosouw, George Earle, Johan Snyman, Hendrik Roodt, Paul Willemse on his way
6 Antonie Claassen, Bernard le Roux both now French internationals, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk, Frans Viljoen
7 Francois Louw, CJ Stander (another youngster now an Irish project), Don Armand
8 Ernst Joubert, Josh Strauss, Ashley Johson, Gerhard Vosloo, Cornell du Preez, Justin Melck (now a German international), Philip van der Walt going over, Shaun Sowerby, Deysel off, Jacques Botes
9 Ruan Pienaar, Jano Vermaak, Michael Claassens, Rory Kockott, Fourie du Preez, Niel de Kock, Dewald Duvenhage
10 Gavin Hume, Johan Goosen on his way, Morne Steyn, Sias Ebersohn, Scott Spedding, Riaan Smit
11 Bryan Habana, Danie Poolan, Hanno Dirksen
12 Andries Strauss, Wynand Olivier, Rob Ebersohn, Riaan Swanepoel, Meyer Bosman
13 Jaque Fourie, Paul Bosch, Sam Gerber, JP du Plessis
14 Wandile Mjekevu, Gerhard van den Heever
15 Louis Ludik, Zane Kirchner, Joe Pietersen

Our teams could do with these players, especially since we are going to have to fill 6 teams soon.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Our teams could do with these players, especially since we are going to have to fill 6 teams soon.

yes, that's true, but there are signs of them returning. it's just a contract issue.

Joe Pietersen has now signed for the Cheetahs for next year. JP Du Plessis has signed for the Lions.

Nothing stops these guys from returning, but it's their choice if they want to come back or not, this isn't something we can control as our currency doesn't give us the luxury of keeping the guys in SA. To be perfectly honest, some of those guys you mentioned there, are real assholes, and guys I've never liked or rated highly. Like Wicus Blaauw, Gerhard Mostert, Ernst Joubert, Shaun Sowerby, Rory Kockott (groot doos), Meyer Tosman... For them I'm glad they ****ed off as they weren't going anywhere in their current position.

The exodus of players has now been a focal point ever since 2007 after we won the trophy, but with them going, we always managed to find replacements, sometimes even better prospects than these overseas based players.

To you this might be the biggest issue, but to me it's not. My concern is what is currently going on at the franchises themselves, and what is locallly the problems. Because this is where the prevention of an exodus starts. If the franchises and SARU had a bit more balls and savvy, they could easily draw up a contract which will keep all the players in SA. But they wouldn't do that because they get bucketloads of foreign currency when a star signs for the NH teams, this gives them the chance to focus more on the cheap youngsters coming fresh out of highschool or varsity. In this process they sell one guy to fund 10 guys... that's just good business. And it's highly likely that one out of those 10 guys will become a star themselves, so there's no real loss for the union/franchise/company.

The Kings will just become stronger, that is just a fact. EP beaten Natal yesterday at the Craven Week, and looks like one of the top teams this year. And they are slowly getting quality guys in to play for them. They also have a very good coach there in Alan Solomons, he's a very clever coach, and he knows how to get the best out of his players.

Yes, we have to fill 6 teams soon, that is about 45 guys per squad? That gives you 270 guys who will most likely play SR in 2016 for SA. There were more than double that amount of players, playing in the Varsity Cup this year. So to me, it's about getting the dynamics right and having the right combinations. I am very much looking forward to this year's Currie Cup season, as I think the battle for the ***le will be a very close affair with not 1 team being the top dog...

 

[Big Ewis]

to nick who just neg-repped me for that previous post. I was obviously joking with the Top 14 buying out players bit, and am certainly not trying to "stir shiit", none of the Saffas took offense to my post and they're the only concerned ones...come on dude, like...come on man... anyways..

as for the rest of my post, it is my impression indeed: Boks no.1, clubs are just there to fill out the calendar year. I dunno, is there a true profound significance and cultural attachment from fans to their respective clubs ? Doesn't seem like it. At all. Weren't all those clubs created at the same time as the SR championship itself ? This isn't criticism, I'm just thinking out loud.
Like, I'm positive based on feeling and intuition from collected past experience (and a bit of fact too) that if Saffa teams were to be really good and even win in the SR, but the Boks were losing test matches in June and Nov. and not winning RWC's or TRC's, that'd be a big problem. Sounds obvious, but it isn't. In some countries, it is NOT that way. Best and most obvious example: France.

Now, surely Saffa people won't feel happy about this view and will say they do really have a genuine lore of local club, but how much of that is fact and how much is just emotion ? Is there really a profound attachment to club there ? Just asking.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

to nick who just neg-repped me for that previous post. I was obviously joking with the Top 14 buying out players bit, and am certainly not trying to "stir shiit", none of the Saffas took offense to my post and they're the only concerned ones...come on dude, like...come on man... anyways..

as for the rest of my post, it is my impression indeed: Boks no.1, clubs are just there to fill out the calendar year. I dunno, is there a true profound significance and cultural attachment from fans to their respective clubs ? Doesn't seem like it. At all. Weren't all those clubs created at the same time as the SR championship itself ? This isn't criticism, I'm just thinking out loud.
Like, I'm positive based on feeling and intuition from collected past experience (and a bit of fact too) that if Saffa teams were to be really good and even win in the SR, but the Boks were losing test matches in June and Nov. and not winning RWC's or TRC's, that'd be a big problem. Sounds obvious, but it isn't. In some countries, it is NOT that way. Best and most obvious example: France.

Now, surely Saffa people won't feel happy about this view and will say they do really have a genuine lore of local club, but how much of that is fact and how much is just emotion ? Is there really a profound attachment to club there ? Just asking.

In SA certainly the Bokke are no.1 but not in the way the ABs are no.1 for NZ and the SR frnachizes are there to feed them. Whereas in NZ the NZRU effectively own the SR franchizes, in SA the SR 'franchizes' are nothing other than the bigger provinical unions (not just created at the same time as SR) which is owned by their boards made up of representitives from local clubs.

Certainly for the average fan the provincial teams are less important than the Bokke but in the Apartheid isolation years the only rugby we had was Currie Cup (oldest provincial competition) rugby which pitted those provincial sides against each other. For all purposes that was the pinnacle of rugby for a SA fan and to some degree that (the importance of province) has carried over and on. Add the distances between the provincial bases and the vast difference of culture between them and that just adds to the sense of rivalry between provinces although professionalism (players hop from province to province a lot thse days) and the readmittence of the Bokke to test rugby has certainly dulled it a tad.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ right, all makes sense to me. The apartheid bit is a good point...thanks for that, pure info and confirmation of things. And yeah, it definitely feels like S.A. has more "separation" from club and national team than NZ. In NZ, it's really all put together for the sole purpose of improving all aspects of All-Black Rugby, the farthest possible thing away from France. I'd wish for an equilibrium between the two extremes, but my nation has clearly picked one of the extremes unfortunately.

 

[SomeOke]

^ right, all makes sense to me. The apartheid bit is a good point...thanks for that, pure info and confirmation of things. And yeah, it definitely feels like S.A. has more "separation" from club and national team than NZ. In NZ, it's really all put together for the sole purpose of improving all aspects of All-Black Rugby, the farthest possible thing away from France. I'd wish for an equilibrium between the two extremes, but my nation has clearly picked one of the extremes unfortunately.

Unfortunately France suffers a bit in the same way the premier league affects England, being the biggest and richest domestic competition is always going to dilute the national talent pool. Players need exposure at top levels, South Africa is pretty much the exact opposite having no money in our domestic league forcing our unions to play younger players and give more players an opportunity at a high level.

I really don't think that the Springboks will suffer through all of this - in soccer teams like the Netherlands and Brazil basically use their domestic league to train up youngsters and their stars get bought out elsewhere and this hasn't affected their international standard.

Unless this new SR format is a huge hit ultimately I see South Africa joining the NH within 5 years. It's just the logical progression of the way things are going - either that or we need a world competition, Aus/NZ have a local comp, France and the home unions have a local comp, SA has a local comp and we all have one super competition - Champions league style, which sounds awesome to me, but I'm just a whippersnapper with no respect for traditions .

 

[Big Ewis]

Yeah I mean, that's what I was hinting at in my first post. Who really really gives a shiit, right ? It's better if Saffa clubs perform too, but really it's all about the Boks, or something along those lines. And the Springboks aren't looking exactly accessible or vulnerable atm, so seriously, not really a problem is it ? Plus I see the Sharks are doing very well, it's not like there's no Saffa representation at the top at all in SR.

I'm saying: this is first world issues, "rich people problems". France, now we've got ISSUES. If South Africa's biggest problem is they're not dominating the SR like they'd like, then trust me, you're in a fkng great spot. If that's the worst you've got, then you're doing really mighty fine. South African Rugby will never go out of business, they'll always produce hulkish forwards, always have pace in the backline and will always keep the Rugby Union culture alive, and will always have a tremendous and deep pool to choose from.
I'm not criticizing - I rather mean to be comforting, but this is just a mundane salon conversation right here.

Still picking S.A. to win the RWC btw. Maybe that'll change as things evolve, maybe not. Right now, still got Boks if I had to put money down.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think SA's change in selection policy is clearly the worst thing that can happen - which I've stated continuously. What is worst is that HM seems completely happy to select overseas based players as freely as domestic ones. Yes South Africa had an exodus of players before (as does NZ), but now it's really at an all new level. Players who aren't even capped can go overseas and get in the Springbok frame, and if not hold off for an opportunity to play for overseas national side. I think it is really effecting the depth of South African rugby..

The selection policy for me for the Springboks is now a good format. HM selects the best guys HE thinks should play for the boks. If they are already a capped Springbok, then the national border line doesn't apply, if they are however not capped yet, the border applies and he only picks guys who plays in South Africa. a guy like Johan Goosen as an example, would be unfair to judge HM on selection policy, as HM picked him while he was with the Cheetahs, and at that time didn't show any interest in the NH. A year later after being a Springbok, he now goes to France.

As for the remark on depth of South African Rugby, it is my opinion that most of the guys that goes abroad, that haven't made a name for themselves in SA, wasn't in contention to play at top level in the first place. Some have however evolved abroad, but some haven't. It's easy to go and point fingers or say "I told you so" after the fact. I think there is a learning curve in approaching players, and keeping them in SA. I think also the Bulls have now shown the correct procedure in contracting players. Their contracts are now structured that when they offer a player a contract, it is for a defined period, such as 2 years, 18 months, or something in that line. Then during the off season, close to expiry, when other clubs can't approach a player yet, they offer the player a longer contract. They did this now with Handre Pollard, Marcell van Der Merwe and Jacques Du Plessis.

The thing is that it's up to the player to decide where he wants to play or not, and our economy is not in a position to get in a tussle with the European, Japanese, and even Australian Market when the player wants so go to the highest bidder.

to nick who just neg-repped me for that previous post. I was obviously joking with the Top 14 buying out players bit, and am certainly not trying to "stir shiit", none of the Saffas took offense to my post and they're the only concerned ones...come on dude, like...come on man... anyways..

I took offence, but then again most of your posts are taken that way, I think I'm just getting used to it.

as for the rest of my post, it is my impression indeed: Boks no.1, clubs are just there to fill out the calendar year. I dunno, is there a true profound significance and cultural attachment from fans to their respective clubs ? Doesn't seem like it. At all. Weren't all those clubs created at the same time as the SR championship itself ? This isn't criticism, I'm just thinking out loud.

There definitely is a strong attachment from fans towards clubs. At least from the majority of fans.

If you walk in shopping malls for instance, it is very easy to spot a guy and for which team he's supporting just by looking at the way he's dressed, or the way he talks.

There is a big passion towards a team, and you will definitely see at most guys home's at their bar or Braai area which team he supports. flags, memorabilia, caps, photos etc.

Clubs are certainly not there for the purpose of just filling out the calender year. And that comment is one that makes me a bit angry, as it shows that you haven't read up about the Currie Cup, and some of the threads regarding the Currie Cup.

If you take me for example, I'm a passionate Bulls fan, but also a knowledgable general South African Rugby fan. I know most of the players in all the teams, and are even a fan of some of the guys in other teams. If you take my father on the other hand, he's also a Bulls fan, he hates the WP(Stormers), he only knows the WP guys that are in the Springbok team and won't ever support them, not even when they are the only SA team left in the SR playoffs. In fact, he would rather support the team playing against them.

Currie Cup and Super Rugby has a culture all on it's own in SA. Especially in the Afrikaans-speaking communities.

Like, I'm positive based on feeling and intuition from collected past experience (and a bit of fact too) that if Saffa teams were to be really good and even win in the SR, but the Boks were losing test matches in June and Nov. and not winning RWC's or TRC's, that'd be a big problem. Sounds obvious, but it isn't. In some countries, it is NOT that way. Best and most obvious example: France.

We always see it as a big problem when the Boks loses. even if it's just one match in the entire year.

Now, surely Saffa people won't feel happy about this view and will say they do really have a genuine lore of local club, but how much of that is fact and how much is just emotion ? Is there really a profound attachment to club there ? Just asking.

Do you support your team without emotion?? I think every sports-fan, has emotion towards the sport/player(s)/clubs. You wouldn't be classified as a fan without having the presence of emotions being part of you.

 

[Big Ewis]

I took offence, but then again most of your posts are taken that way, I think I'm just getting used to it.

Let me just get this straight. You took offense to THAT post :

well that's obviously because we've bought all your players out. But who cares anyways, right ? From what I understand, clubs are just something to watch n follow conveniently during the year and that's that, but it's all about the Boks and the Tri-Nations and World Cups and test Rugby really.

and you even go to the lengths of saying you take offense to "most of my posts" ?? Ah, I see...:huh: well I hope the uhmm...'offense taking' comes to a halt for you, because there isn't any in them to begin with. I'm quite perplexed by that statement, I must admit, no really - and God knows I see my fair share of absolute absurdities and astronomical-proportioned aberrations in this life ! I like to ride teh life on the light side, (because of course I'd go outright insane seeing what I'm given !) but every once in a while something stops me in my motion, and I ponder. Poh-poh-poh-poh ponderrrrrrr...
Any..ways.

Nope, indeed I haven't read about the Currie Cup. And my post was an obvious shortcut, as I've clarified in later posts...I was just saying Saffa ppl probably like their clubs, but it isn't nearly a priority like in France or the way the Boks are. Anyways, I got my answer from stormer and you gave me good elements too.

On fan-hood and emotion:
well I disagree with you, and this is interesting. Some time ago, I'd have agreed, but now I see it is possible to be a fan without emotion. France being terrible under P.S.A. has been a blessing for me. It has made me expect very little from France and has allowed a completely serene, 'ride with the wave' type of attitude. Because it has desensitized me almost entirely, along with personal growth and maturation in life, I feel almost nothing now. If we win, good; if we don't, that's okay, it's just a sport.
"wouldn't be classified a fan" - FALSE !! (Dwight Shrut style). I'm a France, Toulouse and Portland Trailblazers (NBA) fan. I have just weighed in a few things in my life.

I don't mean to be a Koombaya life-lesson giving guru, but when winning becomes everything and is the only goal, that's when people become their most blatantly and insultingly stupid. They start yapping about nationalism (like one country could ever be that important), comparing penis sizes, turning gratuitously belligerent and hostile, mean-spirited, pedantic as to commenting on the shiittiest little details of the game and blaming refereeing...it's an absolute catastrophe of human filth in its greatest form, and that is saying...oh so very much. Would make Satan jealous (or really, really happy ???).

 

[TRF_heineken]

On fan-hood and emotion:
well I disagree with you, and this is interesting. Some time ago, I'd have agreed, but now I see it is possible to be a fan without emotion. France being terrible under P.S.A. has been a blessing for me. It has made me expect very little from France and has allowed a completely serene, 'ride with the wave' type of attitude. Because it has desensitized me almost entirely, along with personal growth and maturation in life, I feel almost nothing now. If we win, good; if we don't, that's okay, it's just a sport.
"wouldn't be classified a fan" - FALSE !! (Dwight Shrut style). I'm a France, Toulouse and Portland Trailblazers (NBA) fan. I have just weighed in a few things in my life.

I don't mean to be a Koombaya life-lesson giving guru, but when winning becomes everything and is the only goal, that's when people become their most blatantly and insultingly stupid. They start yapping about nationalism (like one country could ever be that important), comparing penis sizes, turning gratuitously belligerent and hostile, mean-spirited, pedantic as to commenting on the shiittiest little details of the game and blaming refereeing...it's an absolute catastrophe of human filth in its greatest form, and that is saying...oh so very much. Would make Satan jealous (or really, really happy ???).

being a fan as I understand it, is being a fanatic about something, and emotion is part of the equation. Without emotion, and having the attitude of riding the wave, as you put it, just make you a spectator.

Emotion is part of being human, and people use emotions about things which they are passionate about, just like religion, beliefs, cars, porn, sex, sports, comic books, etc.

 

[Big Ewis]

I am indeed passionate about porn so you semi-win the argument there, but I'm not passionate at all about religion for example. The Christian God exists (physically) as far as I'm concerned and I believe that 100% but you won't see me get excited about that over a conversation because I have a serene and total confidence about that belief. You'll see me get excited about really unfair things but that's in any topic whatsoever, could be sports or religion or could be on the topic of the keyboard I'm using atm. It's not so much the topic or object of a convo, it's rather the degree of unfairness people can sometimes conjure that makes me lose control unfortunately. The narrow-mindedness of some individuals can cause such frustration it's hard to take it lightly or with humor anymore, I wish I were infinitely patient but I'm alas a human being.
But this isn't passion for anything in particular, this is just the tribulations of being alive.

Anyways, Saffa clubs aren't dominating SR and the Boks are going to win the World cup next year, oh noes.... (JOKE !!!!!!! THIS IS A JOKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE, NO OFFENSE THERE TO BE TAKEN, GUARANTEED !!!!!!!!!!!!)