Show some ambition and go west, Lam tells rivals' reserves

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

From the Irish Indo today:

[h=2]PAT LAM launched a withering assessment of Ireland's young rugby players, questioning their drive and ambition to make the grade as professionals.[/h]The Connacht coach criticised those prospects who choose to stay in the academies of Leinster, Munster and Ulster rather than move to a club, like his own, where they would have a better chance of accumulating game time.

Full article at the link: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...-west-lam-tells-rivals-reserves-29704513.html

Lam raises a good point. If, say, Robbie Henshaw was a Leinster player, would he now be in the Ireland squad or would Brian O'Driscoll's hold on the 13 jersey limit his action to lesser games? The other side of the argument is that training with good players improves young players' skills. There's also the fact that a young player at Leinster is only one injury away from starting in the Heineken Cup with the bulk of the Ireland team. Take Martin Moore as a recent example. He's earned a national call up based on Mike Ross' hamstring injury.

Any thoughts?

 

[Feicarsinn]

It's a reasonable point I guess. He can point to the likes of Sean Cronin and possibly Ian Keatley as examples of earning your stripes out west. That said, there are plenty of guys who've gone west and never amounted to anything. The counterargument can point to Donnacha Ryan and Fergus McFadden as players who stuck round and finally got their chance, but for every Ryan there's an Ian Nagle. Looking at the current Leinster setup I'm actually not too sure who he'd want, we're pretty threadbare at the moment!

Long term of course this is no solution to Connacht's issues. They simply have to start producing more of their own players if they want to get ahead.

 

[Amiga500]

Long term of course this is no solution to Connacht's issues. They simply have to start producing more of their own players if they want to get ahead.

They also need to stop having every good player they have getting stripped off them.

If you put together a hypothetical 15 of guys who were at Connacht over the last 5 years but left, plus those still there, you'd have a pretty decent team.

 

[psychic duck]

They also need to stop having every good player they have getting stripped off them.

If you put together a hypothetical 15 of guys who were at Connacht over the last 5 years but left, plus those still there, you'd have a pretty decent team.

Go on then ... name a XV of players Connacht themselves have produced. The vast majority of the players you refer to as them being taken were produced by others to begin with. If they develop their own, then they will naturally find the players showing more home loyalty (like Duffy, O'Connor, Henshaw and Muldoon have done) as opposed to those who just are there as a stepping stone and will leave as soon as the bigger team comes (Carr, Cronin or Keatley).

 

[Feicarsinn]

They also need to stop having every good player they have getting stripped off them.

If you put together a hypothetical 15 of guys who were at Connacht over the last 5 years but left, plus those still there, you'd have a pretty decent team.

Yeah, but how many of them came through the Connacht youth system? It's all well and good for them to complain about losing the likes of Sean Cronin, Ian Keatley, Fionn Carr, Mike McCarthy and so on, but they're all blow ins in the first place.

 

[Peat]

Both Duffy and O'Connor spent good parts of their career away from Connacht. Fact is any player with serious talent will outgrow them as things stand and will probably have to leave for their career's sake. Realistically I don't expect it to be any different for the latest batch of home growns, particularly as so many of Connacht's academy intake is coming from Munster and Leinster. They're also probably going to lose Eoin Griffin, as they're not big enough to keep him and Henshaw happy. And that's what keeps the talent exodus going. Not teams saying "This player must leave", its players saying "I'd like to win occasionally".

Feic says Cronin and Keatley earned their stripes out west. From where I'm sitting, they had to earn their stripes again when they went back to a big province, and both lost their chance to contest for the number one slot at their home province. That's a pretty big deal, particularly as neither is a first choice international, with only Cronin looking like he might achieve it. For a young player with the ambition to be an Ireland international and provincial player, its so much better to be at one of the other three its not funny. Take an opportunity there and you're made. Take an opportunity in Connacht and you've got the chance to go to a big province and do it all over again. Hagan didn't, Carr didn't. I get the Connacht need the players, and there are some players with nothing on who will be better moving, but its only the better opportunity for those not getting one elsewhere. And, lets be honest, how many such players are there in Ireland who'd really bother the Connacht squad?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Both Duffy and O'Connor spent good parts of their career away from Connacht. Fact is any player with serious talent will outgrow them as things stand and will probably have to leave for their career's sake. Realistically I don't expect it to be any different for the latest batch of home growns, particularly as so many of Connacht's academy intake is coming from Munster and Leinster. They're also probably going to lose Eoin Griffin, as they're not big enough to keep him and Henshaw happy. And that's what keeps the talent exodus going. Not teams saying "This player must leave", its players saying "I'd like to win occasionally".

Feic says Cronin and Keatley earned their stripes out west. From where I'm sitting, they had to earn their stripes again when they went back to a big province, and both lost their chance to contest for the number one slot at their home province. That's a pretty big deal, particularly as neither is a first choice international, with only Cronin looking like he might achieve it. For a young player with the ambition to be an Ireland international and provincial player, its so much better to be at one of the other three its not funny. Take an opportunity there and you're made. Take an opportunity in Connacht and you've got the chance to go to a big province and do it all over again. Hagan didn't, Carr didn't. I get the Connacht need the players, and there are some players with nothing on who will be better moving, but its only the better opportunity for those not getting one elsewhere. And, lets be honest, how many such players are there in Ireland who'd really bother the Connacht squad?

Thinking about this from a Leinster point of view. The only guys who could probably fit into the catagory that Lam is speaking of are Tom Denton, Ben Marshall, John Cooney and maybe Dominic Ryan. Would any of them be of real benefit to Connacht? Doubtful.

 

[Amiga500]

Go on then ... name a XV of players Connacht themselves have produced. The vast majority of the players you refer to as them being taken were produced by others to begin with.

Yeah, but how many of them came through the Connacht youth system? It's all well and good for them to complain about losing the likes of Sean Cronin, Ian Keatley, Fionn Carr, Mike McCarthy and so on, but they're all blow ins in the first place.

Yes, the may be blow-ins, but after developing into something approaching their peaks, they are enticed away. If they stayed, then Connacht would have a much stronger team.


It doesn't matter if the players are acquired or developed. If, once reaching a certain point of development, they are taken away by the other provinces or someone else, then its incredibly difficult to build a strong team and squad.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yes, the may be blow-ins, but after developing into something approaching their peaks, they are enticed away. If they stayed, then Connacht would have a much stronger team.


It doesn't matter if the players are acquired or developed. If, once reaching a certain point of development, they are taken away by the other provinces or someone else, then its incredibly difficult to build a strong team and squad.

Let's not try to make the big three into villains in this situation. It's not like they're forcing the players to leave, they can only offer a contract equivalent to that Connacht offer.

 

[Amiga500]

Let's not try to make the big three into villains in this situation. It's not like they're forcing the players to leave, they can only offer a contract equivalent to that Connacht offer.

As far as developing the strength of Connacht are concerned; they are villains as they keep taking away their best players!

Walks like a duck... quacks like a duck. In this case...

 

[Feicarsinn]

If that's the case then the players should be cast in the exact same negative light.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I've seen it mentioned in the past that a loan system should be introduced between the other provinces and Connacht. I'm not sure this benefits anyone. I think a possible option is to do something akin to Barcelona in football.

When Barcelona sell a talented player to another club, they almost always insert a buy back clause into the contract. Taking Oriol Romeu as an example, he signed for Chelsea in 2011 for €5m. Barcelona inserted a buy back clause whereby they had an option to buy Romeu back in 2012 for €10m or 2013 for €15m. Chelsea immprove the player and are financially compensated if Barcelona want him back while Barcelona don't completely miss out on a player they developed for a number of years.

Applying that to rugby, say Connacht need a hooker and approach Ulster for an in contract Niall Annett. Ulster allow him to move west but insert a buy back clause. If Ulster want Annett back after a year, they must send two young players to Connacht. If they want him back after two years, they must send three young players to Connacht. Connacht's fee for improving Annett goes up by the year while Ulster get a fully formed (for want of a better term) player back down the line.

Could that work?

 

[Amiga500]

Could that work?

Dunno.


I'm actually looking forward to a Rabo quali system. It means the IRFU don't have to choose between their provinces for the HEC, but can push all 4 forward. It might make a bigger difference than any internal IRFU barter system.

 

[Peat]

If that's the case then the players should be cast in the exact same negative light.

Quite. And, if it is to be expected that Connacht should keep all of the players they take from other provinces, soon none shall go at all.

As for a buy-back clause - why would Ulster do that in that hypothetical example, when they know that the player's contract would be up soon enough, and he's extremely likely to prefer to go back home? As long as rugby players move when their contracts are up it is difficult to imagine an effective clause system because the clauses will disappear when the contract is up.

And it doesn't solve the main problem which is why would Annett wish to go west to begin with? He wouldn't start for Connacht, he'd probably have to fight for a place in the 23. At Ulster, he gets a spot on the bench for all Pro12 games Best misses - that's a lot of them - and is only an injury away from Heineken Cup gametime at any time. He's already got a decent deal; Connacht wouldn't be able to improve much on it. He leaves Ulster and all of a sudden that opportunity goes to Jonny Murphy instead - how does he know that Murphy won't have cemented himself as a matchday squad member by the time Best is ready to go/Annett is ready to return? Pretty much exactly what happened with Cronin and Sherry. Seems a poor deal to me. Jonny Murphy might like to go - but is he going to get into the 23? Doubt it. So he's an injury away at Connacht and two away at Ulster. Not massively tempting.

This is the main issue. Players don't want to go and players don't want to stay. I don't think any amount of compensating contracts or what not can compensate for that. Connacht have contracts open right now - although I presume they're short term ones - and players don't want to go. Its even easier to see why a player might decide not to uproot their life and presumably their studies for a 4 or 6 month contract in which nothing much may happen, while the prospect of something opening up at home is open, and there are rivals to be kept out/pursued there.

The simple truth is that Connacht need to be a better proposition for young players. There are, I'd presume, no unambitious academy players in Ireland. There are simply players who reckon they've got a better chance of progressing by sticking with the structure at home. Its not about getting the provinces to agree to send them, its about getting the players to agree to go.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Go on then ... name a XV of players Connacht themselves have produced. The vast majority of the players you refer to as them being taken were produced by others to begin with. If they develop their own, then they will naturally find the players showing more home loyalty (like Duffy, O'Connor, Henshaw and Muldoon have done) as opposed to those who just are there as a stepping stone and will leave as soon as the bigger team comes (Carr, Cronin or Keatley).

Just to expand on this a little, below is Connacht's 23 for this weeks game. Bolded are native Connacht players:

Connacht line-up v Glasgow

15. Gavin Duffy
14. Fionn Carr
13. Darragh Leader
12. Dave McSharry
11. Matt Healy
10. Dan Parks
9. Kieran Marmion

1. Brett Wilkinson
2. Jason Harris-Wright
3. Rodney Ah You
4. Michael Swift (captain)
5. Craig Clarke
6. Mata Fifita
7. Jake Heenan
8. George Naoupu

Replacements:

16. Dave Heffernan
17. JP Cooney
18. Nathan White
19. Aly Muldowney
20. Mick Kearney
21. Paul O'Donohoe
22. Craig Ronaldson
23. Tiernan O'Halloran

4/23 are from Connacht, including 2 starters and none of the starting pack. Admittedly injuries have depleted them but Connacht need to up their game in this regard or the IRFU could begin to question their funding again.

@Peat
I used Annett as an example because this time last year, it was looking likely that Adrian Flavin would retire and Conncht's only remaining hooker was Jason Harris Wright. Annett still had Rory Best, Rob Herring and Nigel Brady ahead of him in the queue. I'm fairly sure that if he was approached then, a shot at regular action in a 23 for Connacht looked more likely than it did for Ulster.

 

[Feicarsinn]

A part of me thinks that the train of thinking that says send the boys out west for game time is a bit out dated. With the addition of the two Italian sides to the Pro 12 and the introduction of the British and Irish Cup there's a lot more rugby for the young lads to take their chances. With the strain of injuries and internationals, Munster, Leinster and Ulster need fairly hefty squads at this point. For example, with 17 players away on international duty the likes of Noel Reid, Dominic Ryan and John Cooney are all given chances to impress, as well as a plethora of other young guys. They'll get a lot more game time over the coming weeks and can expect the same come the Six Nations. About 10 first team appearances and another 6 or 7 'A' games is more likely to keep them more in the provincial coach's mind than a full season out in Connacht in my opinion.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

A part of me thinks that the train of thinking that says send the boys out west for game time is a bit out dated.

I agree, it's not about sending players west. It should be about how to make Connacht a more attractive destination so that players choose to go west. How to do that is the conundrum. Perhaps we should look at how New Zealand spread around their talent and modify it to suit an Irish context.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I agree, it's not about sending players west. It should be about how to make Connacht a more attractive destination so that players choose to go west. How to do that is the conundrum. Perhaps we should look at how New Zealand spread around their talent and modify it to suit an Irish context.

While I'm by no means up to speed on the inner workings of the structure of New Zealand youth rugby, I'd imagine to have a fairer spread would take a fairly radical overhaul of the academy system over here. I brought up the draft system in the Heineken Cup thread, but if you wanted to eventually equalize talent across the board in Irish rugby that'd be the best way to do it. The provinces get to divide the players coming out of the schools systems equally and players would feel more affinity towards Connacht having come through the academy. Of course, there'd be massive complications with such as player relocation, AIL clubs alignment, etc. But in terms of the bigger picture it could be an idea worth exploring.

EDIT: Another advantage that occurs to me is that a draft system for the provinces would help to stop player congestion in the academies and on the fringes of the first team. For example, Stuart Olding, Luke Marshall and Tom Farrell wouldn't all be competing to break into the Ulster centre spots, while Leinster's impressive amount of young backrows would be better spread over the country.

 

[Peat]

Brady was always going and everyone knew that for a long way out. So its 2nd choice vs 3rd choice. And the Ulster Farrell is Chris, Tom is the Leinster Farrell.

I can't really offer a decent solution to Connacht's woes here. Money's not there and I'd oppose anything negatively impacting Ulster. Sure, maybe we'd get some of those Leinster back-rows BUT... if they don't want to come up here of their own free will... then balls to them. The best I could offer them is run-off - Leinster and Ulster in particular have academies that will oversupply - but that will take time. Just as its taking time for Connacht's academy programme to properly come on stream.

Which, incidentally, would be one of the negative aspects of a draft system. All of a sudden the provinces would stop investing in their academies. They'd basically have to be taken over by the IRFU.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Brady was always going and everyone knew that for a long way out. So its 2nd choice vs 3rd choice. And the Ulster Farrell is Chris, Tom is the Leinster Farrell.

I can't really offer a decent solution to Connacht's woes here. Money's not there and I'd oppose anything negatively impacting Ulster. Sure, maybe we'd get some of those Leinster back-rows BUT... if they don't want to come up here of their own free will... then balls to them. The best I could offer them is run-off - Leinster and Ulster in particular have academies that will oversupply - but that will take time. Just as its taking time for Connacht's academy programme to properly come on stream.

Which, incidentally, would be one of the negative aspects of a draft system. All of a sudden the provinces would stop investing in their academies. They'd basically have to be taken over by the IRFU.

Why would they? Draft after schools. Still need to develop the boys in the academy.