Scrums: is there not a simple way to stop them collapsing immediately?

[Webby the Bear]

hi,

with all the scrums collapsing and just being a mess would it not make sense to do away with ''the hit'', bind together with no pressure and then the ref give the go to push?

 

[lhprop1]

If you get some refs that are front row qualified, they'd be able to see what the cause is. If the refs can properly assess who is causing the problem and penalize them properly instead of just making something up and giving a free kick to the team the ref "thought" caused the problem, it will fix itself.

To further the point, I'd suggest you take away the "touch" commands and go back to a 3 count cadence with "crouch, pause, engage" they will be a lot more stable as well. With all of the force originating at the back and trying to spring forward, the extra count in the cadence throws a lot of guys off. Referees will also have a different cadence and the timing of that will throw some guys off as well.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Easiest think to do is the following:

Make sure that props bind on the back and on the shirt instead of on the arm and underneath the shirt.
Make front row players do not wear tight skin tops so binding is so hard.
Ensure the gap is narrow enough for the hit not to become a major thing.
Get referee's and touch judges more schooled in the art of scrummaging.

 

[Teh Mite]

Revert the engagement procedure 7 years and teach the new generation of refs what the hell is really going on. And get rid of the poncy modern ballerina costumes worn by the players.

Problem solved.

 

[nickdnz]

It's interesting, but there are plenty of problems with scrums, no more than ever. The calls are too slow. As a prop, I've noticed even in club levels, the referees are being told to slow down the crouch, touch, pause, engage the problems being with this, when you're trying to get the hit on quickly (which is important), it takes one anxious man of eight to get the whole pack moving forward in the scrum. If you speed up the scrum, and get rid of the redundant pause, it would certainly go some way to stopping the constant resets.

If you were trying to guarentee that there wouldn't be as many resets, then prebinding and pushing on call would totally get rid of the problem. It would certainly make a different scrum contest though, but as Paddy O'Brien said, the advantage to this would be the referee could then actually spend time enforcing the halfback put the ball in straight, and allow hookers to have a chance to actually hook the ball.

I also agree with getting rid of the skin tight shirts that props wear, and I don't know a front rower who would disagree. Not only does it make binding a real challenge, both to the opposition and to your own hooker, but it's not usually the most flattering outfit, especially when you're reserving for your premier team, and they chuck you on touch judge...

 

[brfc]

My daughter (age10 155cm) is doing her 1st year of contested scrummaging (2 years touch and 1yr contact but non contested under her belt) she plays loosehead in a mixed team and in their 3 on 3 scrums the issue seems to be getting a decent bind on the opposing tight head, where can you bind on them ? Yesterday she was pinged for grapping the opposing props shorts waistband as he was wearing a skintight top. Be good to get an idea of the exact rules on where you can bind.

 

[TNT88]

hi,

with all the scrums collapsing and just being a mess would it not make sense to do away with ''the hit'', bind together with no pressure and then the ref give the go to push?

Stay tuned. The IRB might be looking to make changes to the scrum after the world cup.

 

[Peat]

It's interesting, but there are plenty of problems with scrums, no more than ever. The calls are too slow. As a prop, I've noticed even in club levels, the referees are being told to slow down the crouch, touch, pause, engage the problems being with this, when you're trying to get the hit on quickly (which is important), it takes one anxious man of eight to get the whole pack moving forward in the scrum. If you speed up the scrum, and get rid of the redundant pause, it would certainly go some way to stopping the constant resets.

This seems true. The purpose seems to be to stop teams from anticipating the ref's call - how important do you think that is?

If you were trying to guarentee that there wouldn't be as many resets, then prebinding and pushing on call would totally get rid of the problem. It would certainly make a different scrum contest though, but as Paddy O'Brien said, the advantage to this would be the referee could then actually spend time enforcing the halfback put the ball in straight, and allow hookers to have a chance to actually hook the ball.

This would be my first recommendation

I also agree with getting rid of the skin tight shirts that props wear, and I don't know a front rower who would disagree. Not only does it make binding a real challenge, both to the opposition and to your own hooker, but it's not usually the most flattering outfit, especially when you're reserving for your premier team, and they chuck you on touch judge...

Have you been eating all the pies?

 

[big ginger 8]

Playing either side I've never had difficulty binding even with skintight jerseys just grab a lump of flesh.

 

[Deadmonton]

When you have one pack that is far stronger then the other, they will just overpower the other team and there's not really anything you can do about it.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I have to admin it use to be my little trick when playing loosehead to actually grab their tightheads wrist when we went to engage and pin it against their side, then you could either easely pop them or they would get pinged for not binding....

But, i think the whole thing takes too long, these props have five big guys packing in behind them that they have to hold up when waiting for the engage. no wonder they go early

in the end EVERY old pro they have asked has simply came out with "let the front row sort it out", if the refs dont know whats happeing then they shouldn't have so much to do in the procedure

 

[CDN_Rugby]

hi,

with all the scrums collapsing and just being a mess would it not make sense to do away with ''the hit'', bind together with no pressure and then the ref give the go to push?

Not a fan of removing the hit at all, winning the hit is half the battle in the scrum. For me, the problem lies in the cadence (remove touch) and the type of jerseys teams wear these days which makes getting a proper bind near impossible. I don't know, maybe even remove the cadence all together and have the teams engage on their own like they used to do prior to the mid 90s? I guess it's probably less safe, but I don't recall many scrums having to be reset back then.

Honestly, I'd like to see the IRB mandate that jerseys have to be of the same design they were ten years ago. That's without a doubt the biggest problem.

 

[Deadmonton]

I heard a suggestion from somebody on here that props wear special jerseys with loose side panels of a contrasting colour, so the props can bind better and the refs can judge the bind better. The touch is fine, it stops the packs charging at each other from a large distance and is safer. The real problem is that you have the packs waiting to engage fully bound, the binding should come right before the engage (i.e. crouch bind touch engage)

 

[InsaneAsylum]

either add some sort of bind panel to props jerseys, allow them to grab a bind before engaging or give a free kick to the non offending team with no scrum option (i know this will cause a few stirs amongst the purists)

 

[donmcdazzle]

either add some sort of bind panel to props jerseys, allow them to grab a bind before engaging or give a free kick to the non offending team with no scrum option (i know this will cause a few stirs amongst the purists)

A pre-engagement bind (helped by baggier jerseys or a binding panel) would suss it out.

 

[lhprop1]

either add some sort of bind panel to props jerseys,

And what do you do about reserve jerseys? Put a silly flap on all of them? No chance.

Like many have said, revert it back to the way it was in the late 90s. When I first started playing, the cadence was "Crouch and hold . . . . Engage". Crouch and hold was one command, Engage was the other. Everything came together much smoother and the scrums stayed tighter. Scrummaging used to be a joy. With all of the stupid little nitpicky crap, they're not as much fun anymore.


I also like the idea of letting front row sort it out on our own. We've never had a problem finding a solution to a problem in the past, even if it required five-knuckle tickle or an errant boot in a ruck to get your point across.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

And what do you do about reserve jerseys? Put a silly flap on all of them? No chance.

sorry for being wrong. i think i'll go back outside for a game of touch