• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Sam Burgess...What do we think?

tumblr_static___sticker_375x360.png
 
Agreed and I would even throw in Graham and Sutton but am not just talking ball skills, he also has good footwork for such a big man. I too am a big fan of the NRL, in fact any rugby, anywhere. Am just tired of reading all these posts which suggest that the skill set needed/displayed in Rugby Union are far greater than that of League.
Look at the end of the day almost all these lads have grown up with a rugby ball in their hands so to suggest a League player cannot pass a ball is almost ridiculous.

Sorry I disagree. I've played both codes and the passing skills, for example, in union are higher than what you see in league. That doesn't mean the players are better or more skilled, the game is different and different skillsets are required. You have moves in union where the 10 is throwing a 20m spin pass behind both centres back to the fullback Those kinds of moves and long passes are not necessary in league, so you don't have people needing passing skills like that. It's mainly the shovel pass or push pass or whatever you want to call it. You rarely even seen spin passes.
 
Zed. I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. You don't se 20m passes in League? No spin passes? You really haven't watched the same stuff as me.

The number of miss passes, pop passes, flicks, long passes in modern rugby league is massive. If you think an average nrl forward doesn't have ball handling skills equal to or superior to an average union forward you are mistaken in my view. And why compare passes a 10 makes when we're talking about an 8. I agree that a union 10 has far better passing skills than most league players......but he has better passing skills that most Union players too. That's why he's a ten.

Donmcdazzle. While I agree that all the League players you mention have individual attributes that may be equal to or better than SB, the whole package is not as potent. With the possible exception of SBW if I gave you the choice of any of them or Sam.....pretty sure you'd pick Sam. Every time.

And again you're not comparing like for like. Eastwood fir example is a fat centre not a lock forward.
 
I think anyone comparing a forward on union to s forward in league is pretty clueless to be honest... Completely different roles and skills.
 
I think anyone comparing a forward on union to s forward in league is pretty clueless to be honest... Completely different roles and skills.

I'll assume that's aimed at me as you seem to have appointed yourself my main critic. It seems you are now just looking at any element of content which you can use to ridicule or undermine me, or label me as a troll. Please put your new prejudices against me to one side and read my post and the posts it was answering.

Firstly, if we can't compare League and Union forwards then this whole thread, about one becoming the other, seems pretty redundant.

Secondly while I acknowledge the skill set comparison is spurious it is no more ridiculous than the post I was answering - which responded to a post about League forwards' passing skills by comparing them to a Union number 10s passing skills - you can't compare, that was my whole point...which you seem to have missed, or chosen to ignore.

Like you miss the fact that many posts on here start with 'I'm not saying one code is better than the other' but end with '.....but the skills of union players are higher'.

I have never stated that Union is a lesser game or 'requires' a lesser skill set. Neither have I resorted to personal insults (clueless).

I don't expect this to have any impact on your campaign to discredit or insult me. I just want others to be aware of who is actually trolling who here.
 
From my experience, the 'skillsets' vary a lot between the two codes. Iestyn Harris is an example of an incredibly skillful League player who couldn't make it in Union. Billy wizz on the other hand, really did make a massive impact (but he wasn't playing at the pivot of the attack 10/12), so was more about receiving the ball and then 'doing his thing'.
Some like Jonathan Davies' skillset when he went from Union to League showed to be easier to adapt, allowing 'he's too small' to become one of the great players of his generation.
Others have had a great skillset (Gibbs, Quinnell et al), gone to league, then returned to Union with pretty much the same skills, but a lot more power (a helluva lot in Gibbs case).
Either way, its going to be very interesting to see how Burgess does, and I do expect him to be pushed towards the center position. No disrespect meant, but England really do seem to struggle for impact in that area for the last few years, so I think they may try for a 'quick patch'.
Going to be bloody interesting to watch his progress, whatever happens.
 
*clears throat*

The skill set needed/displayed in Rugby Union is far greater than that of League.
 
*clears throat*

The skill set needed/displayed in Rugby Union is far greater than that of League.

I think the skillset numbers may be similar per person, but there's a greater variety of roles in Union than League (which seems to encompass 13 players of very slightly varying sizes), therefore there are more skills.
 
I'll assume that's aimed at me as you seem to have appointed yourself my main critic. It seems you are now just looking at any element of content which you can use to ridicule or undermine me, or label me as a troll. Please put your new prejudices against me to one side and read my post and the posts it was answering.

It was a generic comment aimed at anyone in general who is comparing the two.

Firstly, if we can't compare League and Union forwards then this whole thread, about one becoming the other, seems pretty redundant.

They are fundamentally different so it's futile comparison - anyone comparing the overall skill sets of union Forwards to League Forwards clearly doesn't understand either game.

League Forwards are gainline beasts, they are about getting over the advantage line for their team and sending the opposition defence backwards and releasing strike runners with offloads, in defence they are about stopping the team getting over the advantage line.

Forwards in union are about gainline yes, but they are also about ball security and a platform for the rest of the team (set piece) in defence they are about the contest for the ball as well as the generic defensive roles.

They don't necessarily have the ball skills of a league forward because their role is fundamentally different, this is why the closest comparison to a league forward in union is generally the center.

Secondly while I acknowledge the skill set comparison is spurious it is no more ridiculous than the post I was answering - which responded to a post about League forwards' passing skills by comparing them to a Union number 10s passing skills - you can't compare, that was my whole point...which you seem to have missed, or chosen to ignore.

He wasn't comparing a league forward to a union 10 he was comparing the passing skills in league in general with union in general - i actually disagree with him as i think leagues passing skills superior, but the point you answered wasn't the point he was making.

Like you miss the fact that many posts on here start with 'I'm not saying one code is better than the other' but end with '.....but the skills of union players are higher'.

I haven't missed anything, when you first arrived and opened with your comment about how negative the forum was to League those comments hadn't been made, they have now, and for obvious reasons, because people have not taken kindly to being told they don't understand their own sport.

I have never stated that Union is a lesser game or 'requires' a lesser skill set. Neither have I resorted to personal insults (clueless).

Neither have I, it was a generic comment about the comparison being pointless.

Regardless that you may not have directly commented on union, you have clearly commented on the people of this forums inability to understand Sam and what he brings to the sport. As i said before your opening comment was about how negative this forum is towards league which simply isn't true you've then gone on to say you guys just don't get it.

Again I'll just state I have nothing against you personally, or against league, i just don't like being told i'm not clever enough to get a league player because I post on a union forum. Clearly that might not have been your intention but it's very much how it comes across to me at least.
 
Last edited:
Hey all, new to the forum. England and Bath supporter, I also play for a club in West London, preferably centre but in true amateur rugby fashion I've played anywhere with double figures on the back.

As a Bath supporter, obviously I'm very excited about Sam Burgess's arrival but I do worry that there's a LOT of hype over someone who has never played the game. He's being touted by some (mainly journalists, but still) as the answer to England's midfield problem, yet he has - to repeat - never played the game, and is as likely if not more so to end up playing back row.

On the question of best position, I have always been in the "league converts don't usually make good forwards" camp, for all the obvious reasons of learning to ruck, maul, scrummage and all that jazz. This was until I read Ford categorically stating he intended for Burgess to be a back row player, and heard his reasoning which madkes a hell of a lot of sense. He referred to Burgess as a "sixty plays per game" player, i.e. someone who has sixty direct moments of involvement - basically tackles or carries I assume. He pointed out that the average premiership centre has twelve per game (I think ... doing this from memory) and a back row far closer to Sam's current sixty. I don't follow league so all I know about Burgess's talents is second-hand and I am happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable posters, but there seems to be a consensus in the coverage that Sam's biggest assets, outside his pure power, are his high fitness and enormous work rate. So Ford has a point - if what makes Burgess such a good league player is his high work rate and ability to make his sixtieth carry as powerful as his first, it seems madness to waste it.

There remains the problem of scrummaging, clearing out, jackalling etc. and no-one can deny that's an issue, but I think at the very least the basic stuff can be learnt, to a reasonable level, by a determined individual with an intelligent sporting brain - which I'm sure Burgess is. And the more complicated stuff like jackalling can be left to other players in a balanced back row unit. There's no guarantee he'll be international class, but his best hope of being so is as a formidable ball carrier and tackler round the fringes - I don't know what his hands are like, but I imagine he must have an offloading game which is pretty good by union standards in order to be such a good league player? If he's got even a half decent pass and ability to make a pass-run decision then he sounds like a top class number 8 for Bath (although saying that, I think at present we're scouring the under 15s for back row players, so ... ) and possibly England, but it is far too early to be talking about England at this point. He might well be a dual-code legend, but he might be Joel Tomkins, he might even learn to play union to the exceptionally high standard he apparently plays league, but he won't do it in a few months, and I am quite sure he won't play in the World Cup next year.
 
Hey all, new to the forum. England and Bath supporter, I also play for a club in West London, preferably centre but in true amateur rugby fashion I've played anywhere with double figures on the back.

As a Bath supporter, obviously I'm very excited about Sam Burgess's arrival but I do worry that there's a LOT of hype over someone who has never played the game. He's being touted by some (mainly journalists, but still) as the answer to England's midfield problem, yet he has - to repeat - never played the game, and is as likely if not more so to end up playing back row.

On the question of best position, I have always been in the "league converts don't usually make good forwards" camp, for all the obvious reasons of learning to ruck, maul, scrummage and all that jazz. This was until I read Ford categorically stating he intended for Burgess to be a back row player, and heard his reasoning which madkes a hell of a lot of sense. He referred to Burgess as a "sixty plays per game" player, i.e. someone who has sixty direct moments of involvement - basically tackles or carries I assume. He pointed out that the average premiership centre has twelve per game (I think ... doing this from memory) and a back row far closer to Sam's current sixty. I don't follow league so all I know about Burgess's talents is second-hand and I am happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable posters, but there seems to be a consensus in the coverage that Sam's biggest assets, outside his pure power, are his high fitness and enormous work rate. So Ford has a point - if what makes Burgess such a good league player is his high work rate and ability to make his sixtieth carry as powerful as his first, it seems madness to waste it.

There remains the problem of scrummaging, clearing out, jackalling etc. and no-one can deny that's an issue, but I think at the very least the basic stuff can be learnt, to a reasonable level, by a determined individual with an intelligent sporting brain - which I'm sure Burgess is. And the more complicated stuff like jackalling can be left to other players in a balanced back row unit. There's no guarantee he'll be international class, but his best hope of being so is as a formidable ball carrier and tackler round the fringes - I don't know what his hands are like, but I imagine he must have an offloading game which is pretty good by union standards in order to be such a good league player? If he's got even a half decent pass and ability to make a pass-run decision then he sounds like a top class number 8 for Bath (although saying that, I think at present we're scouring the under 15s for back row players, so ... ) and possibly England, but it is far too early to be talking about England at this point. He might well be a dual-code legend, but he might be Joel Tomkins, he might even learn to play union to the exceptionally high standard he apparently plays league, but he won't do it in a few months, and I am quite sure he won't play in the World Cup next year.

Great first post and welcome.
 
Welcome, fellow West London based Bath supporter! :D

He's very good. He will be a very good forward - I think playing a very similar role to the one Alafoti has played so far this season.

Do yourself a favour and watch one of his games from this year! Pretend it's a Union game and think about what position he looks like he's playing.
The Rd.23 game vs the Broncos was pretty good, you could try that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGQAn0Qtv5A
 
Last edited:
Welcome, fellow West London based Bath supporter! :D
Do yourself a favour and watch one of his games from this year! Pretend it's a Union game and think about what position he looks like he's playing.

I'm actually watching the Grand Final as we speak! So far I've sent him off eight or nine times...
 
I honestly think nothing more is going to be learned before he plays. Get him playing for a few games and go from there

Also, welcome ETR, even if you do support the wrong team :p
 
I honestly think nothing more is going to be learned before he plays. Get him playing for a few games and go from there

Inclined to agree. As soon as his cheeks fixed up, get him in the A team. As much as anything, it's the quickest way to find out where his weaknesses are and work out what you need to work on with him. Does anyone know how Bath are dealing with his training? He presumably has a personal coach of some kind rather than being chucked into the general training sessions wouldn't he? Or is Ford taking it on himself to teach the basics?
 
Inclined to agree. As soon as his cheeks fixed up, get him in the A team. As much as anything, it's the quickest way to find out where his weaknesses are and work out what you need to work on with him. Does anyone know how Bath are dealing with his training? He presumably has a personal coach of some kind rather than being chucked into the general training sessions wouldn't he? Or is Ford taking it on himself to teach the basics?

I imagine he'll have both. He'll maybe train with some of the academy boys and observe the 1st team sessions.

Handling and stuff will probably be as part of the wider group.

Hair & Tan will be a 1on1 with Bruce.
 

Latest posts

Top