Being detached from the situation, I don't have a problem with quotas at junior level rugby, the number of clubs you can have are infinite, you just create new clubs for the new players. However once you get to Currie cup rugby then people are paying money to watch and every player from then on has the same facilities. Once a player gets to Currie Cup from then on pick on merit and merit alone.
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SA rugby, the next 4 years
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Former State President F.W. de Klerk dangled a massive carrot in front of the South Africa public in 1992. Vote yes, and we will get to have international sport again. People lost their minds, and started voting Yes all over the place, forgetting the absolute rot that which is to take over the country that is the ANC.
This country was turned over to the ANC using the sport card. I'm hoping the same card can be used to eliminate them.
BakkiesBokke
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I don't want to get into a massive debate off topic, but I don't think International Sport was the reason that people voted Yes in 1992 - for me it was because Apartheid was corrupt and morally reprehensible.
It wasn't the main reason, but it was seen as an opportunity.
BakkiesBokke
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Nobody I know elevated sport participation above removing the immorality of the National Party and its corrupt Apartheid regime.
The thing is its not nice to know your son missed out because of the color of his skin. I've been in a situation a number of years back where I applied for a job but knew the guy who got up with me during a test aced it as well and he was going to get it because I am white. Just not a nice feeling being discriminated against. What comes around goes around and sins of the father type of thing probably.
We love our sports but I'd suggest this is pretty limited!?
Yup, I think the overwhelming numbers that voted in any case never watched a rugby game before they voted...
This does not just pertain to rugby. All other sports as well.
BakkiesBokke
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Whilst the country hasn't risen high enough out of the abyss that it was in back in the early 90s, I really think we should put SA into context with other countries. There is corruption everywhere, including in developing countries similar to ours. Even top economies like the UK have been hit by scandals, including in recent years - a parliamentary expenses scandal, police bribery scandal, phone-hacking, paedophilia scandals, libor rate-rigging, government tenders to mates scandals, various banking and financial scandals etc. Corruption is everywhere, but that doesn't mean we must just accept it - we need to fight it everywhere.
The report at the bottom of this page is well worth reading, if you want evidence of where we have fallen short, but also areas in which we have made great strides.
http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/archive/colin-coleman-south-africa-page.html
Sorry to continue the political discussion - I think we should get back to the rugby team over the next four years - we can have a big political debate on another thread perhaps?
When it comes to expanding the appeal of rugby, I think Fikile needs to select just 3 schools in each province that don't play rugby currently (as a pilot scheme) and inject cash and coaching into each of these schools. A scheme wouldn't cost all that much and I reckon that the private sector would be willing to sponsor such a worthy cause. There needs to be something put in place at school level, so let's start a 4 year experiment. Any better ideas?
The report at the bottom of this page is well worth reading, if you want evidence of where we have fallen short, but also areas in which we have made great strides.
http://www.goldmansachs.com/our-thinking/archive/colin-coleman-south-africa-page.html
Sorry to continue the political discussion - I think we should get back to the rugby team over the next four years - we can have a big political debate on another thread perhaps?
When it comes to expanding the appeal of rugby, I think Fikile needs to select just 3 schools in each province that don't play rugby currently (as a pilot scheme) and inject cash and coaching into each of these schools. A scheme wouldn't cost all that much and I reckon that the private sector would be willing to sponsor such a worthy cause. There needs to be something put in place at school level, so let's start a 4 year experiment. Any better ideas?
Interesting article written by Kiwi Digby Ross (ROAR) on SA rugby
The Springboks: A true sleeping giant!
I have found myself thinking about South African rugby quite a lot lately, probably due to the fact my All Blacks were likely to, and did, play them in an all-important semi-final in the 2015 World Cup.
In a tense and hard fought match, the All Blacks managed to prevail by a mere two points.
Is that it? Arguably one of the best teams in All Blacks history, owning one of the best records by any international team, can only manage a measly two-point win that was still in the balance in the last minute?
Since the 2011 World Cup, New Zealand have dominated the South Africans in terms of specific head-to-head results, now seven wins for one loss. However the average points difference has been eight points, hardly what I would suggest are light years apart. The average score between South Africa and New Zealand was 26-18 in the last eight Tests.
Now it is true that South Africa’s record has not fared as well as the All Blacks outside of playing each other, however that has more to do with Heyneke Meyer’s obsession with beating the All Blacks and losing sight of what is in front of him.
Some of those games played have been widely acclaimed as some of the best rugby played, while during the same period the Springboks amassed the second most tries scored per match (three) by any international team.
Yet it is a common theme to see this team marginalised as one dimensional, boring and only capable of playing the often termed ’10-man game’. In fact of 141 tries scored in 47 matches, 93 have been scored by backs and 43 by forwards, and there have been five penalty tries.
The Springboks, and by association South African rugby, is often viewed as forward orientated with little substance outside of that.
Anyone who has spent a few minutes taking in the Currie Cup and the fabulous Varsity competition can see this is a fallacy.
There is speed, skill and talent to burn, so much so that in terms of pure numbers, South Africa are the greatest exporter of rugby talent, with more ex-pats running around in foreign competitions than any other. It is difficult to know precisely how many South African rugby players are plying their trade abroad, but Roarer Harry Jones tells me there are as many as 594, which is almost as many as are contracted domestically.
“Many of those are not Super Rugby quality, or even Currie Cup starter standard, but probably half or more would compete for a starting position in the big South African unions, who have about 600 contracted senior class players,†he said.
“Nowadays, the exodus starts much earlier in the players’ careers, like Steven Kitshoff, who just missed out on the World Cup squad, or highly rated youngsters CJ Stander or Paul Willemse, who were on Meyer’s short list for 2019.â€
Roarer Biltongbek has often explained to me the innate conservatism which tends to permeate through South African coaching ranks, particularly at the highest levels. This is true when you consider several Super Rugby teams along with the Springboks, but we have seen some teams, such as the Cheetahs and the Lions, begin to break this mould, and this will continue.
South African rugby has many challenges that it faces that other unions do not have to contend with, quotas and economy spring immediately to mind. However their biggest challenge is the administrators who serve self-interest above what is best for the game.
Their grassroots development has not reached 25 per cent of their schools, talent identification is only done on small scale via the top rugby schools and comparing the innovation we see from South African coaches to those from New Zealand, they are lacking in every department.
When you sit down and take all this into consideration, it is actually astonishing what South Africa has actually accomplished at Test level, although this is likely to be of small comfort to Springbok fans.
From the outside looking in, it is quite scary what South Africa can be. While many would suggest the United States are a potential sleeping giant of the game, there is a monster playing the game right now, invariably ranked number two and still yet to even come close to realising its potential.
Too often these anti-South African sentiments remind me of a schoolyard bully who is heaping his verbal abuse at someone, in the hope that they never retaliate in anger. They live in fear for what potential threat might come if they awaken the beast.
I have made comparisons with New Zealand here as it is in my comfort zone to do so, and it is not my intent to suggest that South Africa should emulate us. But if you imagine a South African set-up focused as one cohesive unit with the ultimate aim of gearing the Springboks to be the best in the world, it is a rather scary thought for the rest of the competition.
The Springboks: A true sleeping giant!
I have found myself thinking about South African rugby quite a lot lately, probably due to the fact my All Blacks were likely to, and did, play them in an all-important semi-final in the 2015 World Cup.
In a tense and hard fought match, the All Blacks managed to prevail by a mere two points.
Is that it? Arguably one of the best teams in All Blacks history, owning one of the best records by any international team, can only manage a measly two-point win that was still in the balance in the last minute?
Since the 2011 World Cup, New Zealand have dominated the South Africans in terms of specific head-to-head results, now seven wins for one loss. However the average points difference has been eight points, hardly what I would suggest are light years apart. The average score between South Africa and New Zealand was 26-18 in the last eight Tests.
Now it is true that South Africa’s record has not fared as well as the All Blacks outside of playing each other, however that has more to do with Heyneke Meyer’s obsession with beating the All Blacks and losing sight of what is in front of him.
Some of those games played have been widely acclaimed as some of the best rugby played, while during the same period the Springboks amassed the second most tries scored per match (three) by any international team.
Yet it is a common theme to see this team marginalised as one dimensional, boring and only capable of playing the often termed ’10-man game’. In fact of 141 tries scored in 47 matches, 93 have been scored by backs and 43 by forwards, and there have been five penalty tries.
The Springboks, and by association South African rugby, is often viewed as forward orientated with little substance outside of that.
Anyone who has spent a few minutes taking in the Currie Cup and the fabulous Varsity competition can see this is a fallacy.
There is speed, skill and talent to burn, so much so that in terms of pure numbers, South Africa are the greatest exporter of rugby talent, with more ex-pats running around in foreign competitions than any other. It is difficult to know precisely how many South African rugby players are plying their trade abroad, but Roarer Harry Jones tells me there are as many as 594, which is almost as many as are contracted domestically.
“Many of those are not Super Rugby quality, or even Currie Cup starter standard, but probably half or more would compete for a starting position in the big South African unions, who have about 600 contracted senior class players,†he said.
“Nowadays, the exodus starts much earlier in the players’ careers, like Steven Kitshoff, who just missed out on the World Cup squad, or highly rated youngsters CJ Stander or Paul Willemse, who were on Meyer’s short list for 2019.â€
Roarer Biltongbek has often explained to me the innate conservatism which tends to permeate through South African coaching ranks, particularly at the highest levels. This is true when you consider several Super Rugby teams along with the Springboks, but we have seen some teams, such as the Cheetahs and the Lions, begin to break this mould, and this will continue.
South African rugby has many challenges that it faces that other unions do not have to contend with, quotas and economy spring immediately to mind. However their biggest challenge is the administrators who serve self-interest above what is best for the game.
Their grassroots development has not reached 25 per cent of their schools, talent identification is only done on small scale via the top rugby schools and comparing the innovation we see from South African coaches to those from New Zealand, they are lacking in every department.
When you sit down and take all this into consideration, it is actually astonishing what South Africa has actually accomplished at Test level, although this is likely to be of small comfort to Springbok fans.
From the outside looking in, it is quite scary what South Africa can be. While many would suggest the United States are a potential sleeping giant of the game, there is a monster playing the game right now, invariably ranked number two and still yet to even come close to realising its potential.
Too often these anti-South African sentiments remind me of a schoolyard bully who is heaping his verbal abuse at someone, in the hope that they never retaliate in anger. They live in fear for what potential threat might come if they awaken the beast.
I have made comparisons with New Zealand here as it is in my comfort zone to do so, and it is not my intent to suggest that South Africa should emulate us. But if you imagine a South African set-up focused as one cohesive unit with the ultimate aim of gearing the Springboks to be the best in the world, it is a rather scary thought for the rest of the competition.
I've been saying this for a while now. If South Africa reaches its full potential, all is well in terms of structures, administration, and merit selection, South Africa will be an absolutely unstoppable machine. Nobody will be able to touch the Boks.
It is rather incredible what the Boks have achieved with all the chaos in SA Rugby and the country as a whole.
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What is Kolbe's passing like? I have only seen him a handful of times, but I wondered whether that sidestep would be a useful asset at number 9?!
I seriously hate the quota debate, because I have little doubt that it'll sort itself out. For instance, anyone remember the township school that had to drop it's soccer program cause the soccer team was playing rugby with the soccer ball before and after practice? Guys want to play rugby black or white, and it has to be said, rugby exposure comes so much easier when in private schools. I have seen very few public schools with proper rugby programs. Then there's the fact that two/three years ago township teams have started playing club rugby, I know this because my mates club (Pinetown) played against them on the fields outside kings park, and lost! They didn't even have boots the year before. Afaik they are still on the up. This quota bs isn't about race imho, it's about availability, expose more black kids to the sport and then you'll have more black players to select for the higher echelons. My point is that in time (with proper support) we will have more than enough black players. Is there something i'm missing? Does the ANC seriously want us to butcher the boks chances because we simply aren't ready? If so, they are sending the message that white players are inherently better than black players, which is obviously false. Someone needs to tell the ANC that rugby is on the rise at the lower levels and good things will happen with greater support at those levels.
I've been saying this for the last 2 years. He played as a scrumhalf for the 7's team, and has a pretty decent passing style.
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I've been saying this for the last 2 years. He played as a scrumhalf for the 7's team, and has a pretty decent passing style.
AFAIK its decent but we'll have to trial him there. He has played 9 in the XVs code before and plays there for the Blitzbokke but whether his distribution from the base is good enough for test rugby we'll only know if he plays there in Super Rugby. I'm excited by the prospect mostly because I don't rate Groom and Vermaak is getting old and has lost his snipe to some degree. Kolbe at 9 on a sniping run or on the counter off a turn-over... I'm drooling. But I'd only pick him if he could perform his core duties at 9 on a par with the other options.
On the quota thing and politics, I think its relevant to this dicussion as it is looming large over SA rugby for the forseeable future. I'm hoping after elections that those politicians looking to use rugby as a soap box for grandstanding and getting exposure will slither off back to their holes. There is always hope that sense prevails and the quota thing is seen as a target or mission statement only and enforced as we aren't there yet though we never know what the next 4 years will deliver ITO players.
I'm with BakkiesBokke that SARU should look to establish 2 or 3 rugby-centric schools or academies in each province and maybe a few more in the Eastern Cape as that's where the current 'black rugby Mecca' is. Focus on fewer but better facilities. Its pointless giving a 100 schools rugby fields, boots and balls and leave it at that. What makes skillfull and rugby-intellegent players is good coaching and a focus on the sport. The majority of professional players come from the Western Cape and its no coincidence that the most traditionally rugby-focussed schools are also here. You only need ~4. As an example Andries Bekker and Josh Strauss both went to school with me. They went to Paul Roos early on in their high schol careers and the rest is history. They weren't the most gifted athletes when they went over but they are the only players that went pro because they went to a 'proper rugby school'.
