Russian troops leaving Georgia

[alexrugby]

Russian troops begun to leave Georgian occupied territories

Checkpoints in Karaleti (where policeman was shot to death) and nearby checkpoints are demontaged

Also Russian checkpoints in West Georgia were dismantled

By the Sarcozy Medvedev Saakashvili projects Russian were to leave Georgia even before these days but nobody thought they would do!

The projects of three presidents also includes the ***le according which Russians must leave Abkhazia and South Ossetia but they are not going to do that

Instead, great military bases are built up there and ussian troops will be dislocated

The places of Russians' OUT LAW dislocation on occupied Georgian territories are in yellow

http://rustavi2.com/news/news_text.php?id_...p;ct=0&wth=

 

[Fa'atau82]

Good, now tell them to get out of your country and go **** themselves. I think that is polite in the circumstances. It is right that in the old days, Georgia rugby players used to train for the scrum by pushing around old modified russian tanks?

 

[redunderthebed]

You do realise lekso that South Ossetia and Abkhazia havent being apart of Georgia since the 1990's and all the aformentioned and Russia are doing by declaring themselves independent etc is confirming what essentially being since then- independent granted the two govt's that are in charge arent the best things around but trying to reclaim the two is ******* into the wind.

Forget about them focus on those who *want* to be Georgian and apart of Georgia.Russia's occupation of any bits of Georgia was short-term just to stop Georgia getting any ideas again,now they have made there point there is no reason to be there and they have no interest in occupying any country contrary to the western and georgian properganda machine designed to demonise medevev (sp?).

Hopefully this ******** is over and that the west recognises South Ossetia and Abkhazia self-determination isn't just reserved for those who are friends of the US and of which its in the US interest to be independent.Kosovo declared independence contrary to international law and i dont see anyone saying anything Serbia's territorial integrity. :toss:

 

[Prestwick]

Russia's intervention into South Ossetia and Abkhazia was actually to preserve the highly active organised crime networks that operate in those two runaway provinces. Gangs which either collude openly with the Russian military, interior ministry, the GRU and the FSB or are even operated by such Russian institutions. There was too much money to be made from drugs and people smuggling for it to go to waste if Georgia exercised authority over that territory. The fact that now the leaderships of these two breakaway provinces now want to start talks about joining the Russian Federation shows just how deep the links between the gangsters and criminals pulling the strings here go with the Russian authorities.

Kosovo should never have been granted independence, not in the way that the United States and the EU, but that is no excuse for Russia to decide to go in and more or less cripple Georgia for having the temerity of defying Russian objections.

And to be fair, the West and Georgia could have sat back without passing out any propaganda, Russian actions both at home, in Chechnya and now in Georgia have shown that the ruling elite there have absolutely no intention on founding a decent, law abiding and fair democracy based on the rule of law and free and fair elections. Instead, they operate an authoritarian and fearsome cartel of power based on pandering to the dark chauvinistic patriotism that still resides in Russia and silencing any voice of dissent. I'm sure Alexander Litvinenko would love to hear about your views on how the West is demonising Putin and Medvedev but he can't. You want to know why? Because he was killed for having the balls to critisise the Russian regime.

Lets focus on who caused the mayhem, destruction and virtual occupation of Georgia. Lets focus on those who had tried their very best to depose a (rightly or wrongly) democratically elected Georgian government and lets focus on the country who, still to this day, would rather that the likes of the Ukraine, the Baltic States and other CIS satellites would rather be part of Russia or at the very least puppets of a Greater Russian empire.

EDIT: Now that the Russian "Peacekeepers" have left, lets see what mark they made on the Port of Gori. what vile Propaganda! I'd wager that the West blew those ships up!

 

[Maccaweeny]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redunderthebed @ Oct 8 2008, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

You do realise lekso that South Ossetia and Abkhazia havent being apart of Georgia since the 1990's and all the aformentioned and Russia are doing by declaring themselves independent etc is confirming what essentially being since then- independent granted the two govt's that are in charge arent the best things around but trying to reclaim the two is ******* into the wind.

Forget about them focus on those who *want* to be Georgian and apart of Georgia.Russia's occupation of any bits of Georgia was short-term just to stop Georgia getting any ideas again,now they have made there point there is no reason to be there and they have no interest in occupying any country contrary to the western and georgian properganda machine designed to demonise medevev (sp?).

Hopefully this ******** is over and that the west recognises South Ossetia and Abkhazia self-determination isn't just reserved for those who are friends of the US and of which its in the US interest to be independent.Kosovo declared independence contrary to international law and i dont see anyone saying anything Serbia's territorial integrity. :toss:[/b]

I agree to the extent that liberal democracies in the West have the tendency to patronise nations like Russia and China for not conforming to euro-centric models of representative government, but in this circumstance the Russian government has not really advanced their case. Apart from the points already raised by Prestwick, Russia has continually disrespected Georgian territorial sovereignty due to the need to appease various nationalist groups (both the communist party and far-right agree on one thing, that the Ukraine and Georgia should remain under Russian suzerainty) and to control the regions potential for oil and natural gas production.

Take for example the provision of Russian passports to thousands of citizens residing in Georgia immediately after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. On face value it's a pretty harmless gesture, almost similar to how a great deal of Australians hold British passports, except the British legislature has not actively endorsed the use of wholesale military intervention when their dual-citizens in other countries are under risk, in fact a British passport does little to protect dual-citizens, and for good reason. On the other hand, there is an express grant in the Russian constitution that provides Medvedev with the means to say "oh well there are a few 'Russians' who have been living and working within your borders, subject to your laws, your welfare and protection for years, who we believe to be under direct threat, we're going to declare war." So handing out tens of thousands of these passports to philo-Russian Georgian citizens was a pretty provocative move.

Also as Prestwick already said, the 'freedom fighters' in Abkhazia and South Ossetia bear a striking resemblance to the various Unionist militants and the Real IRA in the late nineties, crooks who hide behind a veil of legitimacy by saying they're fighting for a cause.

To be fair though, this isn't exactly a unique Russian policy. I mean the Americans and Brits actively supported the growth of Opium by Nationalist warlords retreating from Yunnan into the Shan state of Burma so they could buy arms to fight the commies, only the retreating Chinese did nothing but grow and sell Opium for self enrichment. It's part of the reason why Shan state is such a happy place these days. It seems that the countries that rave on about individual rights, democratic process and minimal state intervention are also quite proficient at lighting fires in other people's back yards.

 

[shtove]

Liberal democracies don't patronise and talk down to authoritarian governments.

They simply have the best system, based on the idea of universal human rights and the rule of law.

Would you want to live under any other system?

 

[Maccaweeny]

Human rights are in no way universal, nor is representative government the 'best' system, the mere fact that it is rarely if ever truly representative of a polity is evidence of that.

What people consider to be civil liberties will often depend on their background and economic status. If you're working an office job with a full stomach, health insurance and a nice car, you will trump lovely things like freedom of association, speech and due democratic process, judicial independence and a separation of powers. On the other hand, if you're living in a shanty-town without even the most basic of amenities, what does free speech give you? does it feed your family? does it keep you warm? does it cure the ailments of hard living?

Ever wondered why authoritarian regimes have flourished in poorer nations, because when you're struggling to survive rights to basic healthcare, education, shelter and affordable provisions become far more important than something ephemeral like freedom of speech (especially for those who can't read or write).

It's why the Bolsheviks had it right when before the revolution their slogan was simply "bread, peace, land". It's naive to think that you give someone the right to vote an elected government and they'll be happy.

 

[alexrugby]

Maccaweeny is right, soon after USSR was crushed down into their stupid economical system in 1991, Russia's president Borils Eltsin started to put ethnical conflict bombs in Caucasus, Remind you about Azerbaijan's lost more than 1/3 of total territory, Chechnya Ingushetia war, Georgia was not exception with Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Despite Russians say there was some ethnicla "self-awareness" in these regions another is true:
Russia encouraged armed rebellions in these parts of Georgia and directed against us,

What is most interesting is the fact our first government reminds, as they refused to put heads under Russian boot:

"Eltsin" says former Georgian authority Besarion Gugushvili "shook us fist and said-<bevare Georgians as Abkhazia stands on fire and we will poure fuel on it, and rmind about Ossetians in your country too>, and we were still in air while we got information from Georgia that war in Abkhazia started" says he.

 

[redunderthebed]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Oct 9 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

And to be fair, the West and Georgia could have sat back without passing out any propaganda, Russian actions both at home, in Chechnya and now in Georgia have shown that the ruling elite there have absolutely no intention on founding a decent, law abiding and fair democracy based on the rule of law and free and fair elections. Instead, they operate an authoritarian and fearsome cartel of power based on pandering to the dark chauvinistic patriotism that still resides in Russia and silencing any voice of dissent. I'm sure Alexander Litvinenko would love to hear about your views on how the West is demonising Putin and Medvedev but he can't. You want to know why? Because he was killed for having the balls to critisise the Russian regime.

Lets focus on who caused the mayhem, destruction and virtual occupation of Georgia. Lets focus on those who had tried their very best to depose a (rightly or wrongly) democratically elected Georgian government and lets focus on the country who, still to this day, would rather that the likes of the Ukraine, the Baltic States and other CIS satellites would rather be part of Russia or at the very least puppets of a Greater Russian empire.

EDIT: Now that the Russian "Peacekeepers" have left, lets see what mark they made on the Port of Gori. what vile Propaganda! I'd wager that the West blew those ships up! [/b]

No no i know full well that Russia govt is s**t and bad dont get me wrong, what really annoys me is that the west are allowing really really really vile govt exist all over the world but go after Russia not because they give a toss about democracy is that they mess with the west interests and its carefully cultivated relationships with Eastern Europe and the former soviet union.This shows to me that they use democracy and the lack of thereof and human rights as a political tool against people they dont like and dont get on with.

I present you this example: The middle east apart from Israel.

They dont want *real* democracy in the middle east why? because they know after years and f**king years of propping up sheiks and princes and whoever else so they can get oil that anti-american islamists would win almost all the elections and tell the yanks to f**k off just like they did in Iran (sans the election admittedly)

Also will let people who will schmooze and not get in there way and possibly have something like oh i don't know oil or gas to sell they will let them torture,rig elections and oppress there own people and stay in power and sometimes help them by giving them new toys to make sure there man stays in power.Its not as bad as it was in the Cold War but its still alive and kicking no doubt.

In short the US and its mates are f**king hypocrites and should start promoting democracy everywhere if they are sincere about it.

Georgia was armed to the teeth and its military re-trained by the USA and they thought they could get away with re-invading South Ossetia and Abkhazia but the ruskis went no you dont! and crushed Georgia quite frankly it was a year 1 taking on a big year 12 bloke and we know who is going to win that fight in the schoolyard and this is no different.

I remember Israel doing something similar in Lebanon but the US wasnt jumping up and down about it.What is the difference? Mikhail is a friend of the US and is the one copping it.Israel is basically the only solid ally the US has in the Middle East that isnt dependent on the money flowing. (although the military aid to systematically oppress the palestinian people and build a apartheid system does help).

I feel for Georgia there people have suffered because of geopolitics and other assorted B*llshit.Russia cant claim the moral highground on this nor can Georgia or its backers it played with fire and got burnt the govt is no victim in this i fear we are going to have more of these proxy battles a la the cold war in this region.

 

[alexrugby]

I feel for Georgia there people have suffered because of geopolitics and other assorted B*llshit.Russia cant claim the moral highground on this nor can Georgia or its backers it played with fire and got burnt the govt is no victim in this i fear we are going to have more of these proxy battles a la the cold war in this region.
[/quote]

I agree thta Georgian people suffered for stupid imperialistic actions

First: NATO and USA tries hard to put a "democracy circle" around Russia
Second: Russia is not going to miss caucasus because Georgia's territory is very suitable for energy traffic

Armed till teath you say: yeah it was so and I want it to continue because life is difficult when you live by the Russia
Russia invades Georgia every 10 years since 1991, I am 22 and I have seen three wars and all of them including this were initiated by Russia

And if you still believe it was Georgia to invade South Ossetia Properly named SAMACHABLO (where ethnic Ossetians were settled down in early USSR ages!!!!!!!!!!!!!) ands it was Georgia first to open fire please follow this New York Tikes ***le: NewYorkTimes