Pacific Island teams on NH Tours...

[Juggernaut]

This post from Melhor_Time in another thread was something I always feel & think would benefit us (Pacific Island teams) and those Tier 2 European countries more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

It has been a year for the future of Canadian rugby. They played Georgia for the first time ever in June (during the Churchill Cup) and won 42-10 in Denver. Instead of touring Europe for a series of matches that they would have little chance of competing well at they went to Japan for two tests and now host Russia. A good set of fixtures, something that the folks at the IRB are finally starting to appreciate with Romania, at long last, hosting Fiji this weekend, Portugal hosting Tonga and Italy hosting Samoa. Chances for all three Island sides to get away wins and also chances for all home teams to get wins against reputable touring opposition.[/b]

Island teams are always at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE when it's time to do the annual tour up North at the end of the year.

Firstly, there's the Club VS Country row...Secondly, when they do release the players, it's only 3-5 days away from their country's first game. So the preparation time isnt always idle and the combination & game-plans is always in chaos. If you go back 10 years and see the margins from past tours, you'll notice a lot of one-sided affairs, but when compared to RWC results (that's when Island teams have enough preparation time), you'll see a whole lot of difference.

So, during the End-of-Year tours, Island teams have to rely heavily on home based players to "touring Europe for a series of matches that they would have little chance of competing well at". So the best logical thing for the iRB to do is scheduled matches for us against Tier 2 European countries. It's a win-win situation for all of us. After 2 matches against, say Romania & Georgia, we could then be billed against a Tier 1 nation in our last game. While at the same time, we're testing our inexperience players against their inexperienced players, we're also bringing the game of rugby to their doorstep.....something their loyal followers need too see live.

A tour timetable like this wouldn't be too bad:

Week-1:
Fiji VS Romania
Samoa VS Russia
Tonga VS USA
Canada VS Japan

Week-2:
Fiji VS Georgia
Samoa VS Romania
Tonga VS Canada
USA VS Japan

Week-3:
Fiji VS Italy
Samoa VS Scotland
Tonga VS Portugal
Canada VS Spain

 

[Fa'atau82]

I agree with this. I think Samoa did exceptionally well against Wales with so little time to prepare, but they need a level playing field.. we just can't get the squad early enough.. whereas Wales, France and Italy pretty much do.

 

[Haj]

Any thoughts about the IRB's rejections of Dual Nationality??
I thought the submissions were sound in that there was to be a 12 month lay off between representing countries etc etc.
"Had the regulation change been made, former All Blacks such as Doug Howlett, Sam Tuitupou and Sione Lauaki would have been able to choose to play for Tonga, and Jerry Collins, Chris Masoe and Casey Laulala for Samoa."

My personal thoughts are that the Northern Hemisphere unions are scared . Tonga, Samoa and Fiji would greatly benefit the presence of former allblacks on and off the field. Another sign the IRB arent sincere about developing the pacific nations.


http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-ne...91203-k7js.html

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haj @ Dec 8 2009, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Any thoughts about the IRB's rejections of Dual Nationality??
I thought the submissions were sound in that there was to be a 12 month lay off between representing countries etc etc.
"Had the regulation change been made, former All Blacks such as Doug Howlett, Sam Tuitupou and Sione Lauaki would have been able to choose to play for Tonga, and Jerry Collins, Chris Masoe and Casey Laulala for Samoa."

My personal thoughts are that the Northern Hemisphere unions are scared . Tonga, Samoa and Fiji would greatly benefit the presence of former allblacks on and off the field. Another sign the IRB arent sincere about developing the pacific nations.


http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-ne...91203-k7js.html[/b]

Its a difficult situation as these guys almost have to play their club rugby in NZ or Europe and sometimes AUS. With the rejection of dual nationality these countries have to find a way to have their players play in top tier club comps as per usual but not play for these countries, NZ in particular. Think it is an historical thing that Islanders play for NZ which is sure to change in the future IMO if those countries can srt out the logistics along with the IRB. I also think NZ has the depth to do without guys like Sivivatu, Muliaina, Soi'alo etc. But in the end, the choice lies with the players and they are happy to play ofr the best team in the world and only get sentimental when their time there is up it looks like.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haj @ Dec 8 2009, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Any thoughts about the IRB's rejections of Dual Nationality??
I thought the submissions were sound in that there was to be a 12 month lay off between representing countries etc etc.
"Had the regulation change been made, former All Blacks such as Doug Howlett, Sam Tuitupou and Sione Lauaki would have been able to choose to play for Tonga, and Jerry Collins, Chris Masoe and Casey Laulala for Samoa."

My personal thoughts are that the Northern Hemisphere unions are scared . Tonga, Samoa and Fiji would greatly benefit the presence of former allblacks on and off the field. Another sign the IRB arent sincere about developing the pacific nations.


http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-ne...91203-k7js.html[/b]

NZRU want it however I am very much against it. It is insulting to New Zealander's that players with Pacific Island heritage who play for the All Blacks would not consider themselves New Zealanders if they could gain something from playing in other countries. You're either a New Zealander or your not, but don't wear an AB jersey and then when you don't get picked, play for another country.

Why is So'oialo, Jerry Collins, Doug Howlett, Rokocoko and Sivivatu, who have more AB caps then most NZ born New Zealander's, and chose to make NZ their home, should be allowed more oppertunities to play for a different country. That is like me getting picked for the AB's (it wont happen but just follow along), playing for NZ,then not getting picked so playing for England because it would be easier and my parents are from there, it is insulting to not only both countries, but undermines the home grown talent from Fiji, Samoa and Tonga who have remained loyal to their countries. I doubt it is a matter of fear from NH countries, it is a matter of princible in which I agree with.

I do believe that more match up's should be made between teir 2 teams, as it would give more international experience to players and it would give time for teams to bond and form combinations as apposed to the "throw together" effort which is currently avalible due to clubs holding players.

 

[Olyy]

I think the Pacific Islands are in a strange place in that, imo, they'd outplay the teams mentioned in the first post, but aren't quite there with the big NH teams (apart from Italy, and Scotland (on a normal day)), so i suppose it's down to whether they want to be a big fish in a small pond, or try and improve by playing harder nations

 

[Juggernaut]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Dec 8 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think the Pacific Islands are in a strange place in that, imo, they'd outplay the teams mentioned in the first post, but aren't quite there with the big NH teams (apart from Italy, and Scotland (on a normal day)), so i suppose it's down to whether they want to be a big fish in a small pond, or try and improve by playing harder nations
[/b]

Olyy, we'd be more than happy to improve by playing harder nations if most European clubs can release our top players weeks in advance before touring so we can have some sound preparation. As it is, we only get them a week before our first match....so that is a great disadvantage to us.

Case in point is Samoa in their first test against Wales...all their Europe-based players only came into camp 3 days before the game, now tell me, how the heck can we compete on a level playing field with that kind of preparation??

Look at the ABs, Wallabies & Boks....they were in camp for nearly 2 months (I think) before they toured. Same could be said for the 6N teams...

So most of the times we have to make do with our local base players, and as can be witnessed by the huge scoreline, we just not that competitive. That is why I suggested that it would be better for our local players to take on Tier 2 European teams because the playing field is level and it's a win-win situation for both.

Give us enough time to prepare and we can show the world just what we can do.....as evidenced by Samoa & Fiji during the RWCs.

 

[ridgerunnersp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Dec 8 2009, 04:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think the Pacific Islands are in a strange place in that, imo, they'd outplay the teams mentioned in the first post, but aren't quite there with the big NH teams (apart from Italy, and Scotland (on a normal day)), so i suppose it's down to whether they want to be a big fish in a small pond, or try and improve by playing harder nations[/b]

I like the idea Jugg. USA and Canada get so little quality opposition as well, except for the world cup, that they don't have to opportunity to test themselves in preparation. And when they do go on tour like last year, they get spanked. So I think it would be a good happy medium. I think after several years of this, Olyy, the pond would get bigger and bigger.

As for dual internationals, I can understand it from the perspective of the Islanders, but it would be unfair to institute a law that only benefited a small number of countries.

 

[RC]

I think preparation is a huge aspect to the Islanders getting some good game performances in.
Once they actually get given the opportunity to gel together, the NH teams will stop putting out their second string squads, because a win against these teams wont be something they could take for granted anymore.

 

[shazbooger]

Meh. Its a bot.

 

[Nickdnz]

Which makes your +1 rep seem even more funny.

 

[shazbooger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Dec 22 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Which makes your +1 rep seem even more funny.[/b]

I have to say I was pretty disgusted myself. I mean +repping a bot. What kinda idiot am I.

Made me laugh though, I only noticed when I say this post.

Either way I have decided to take it out on you, and yours in the Maori thread!

Bring it on beeeeeaatches!

 

[Fa'atau82]

If the iRB allow capped players to appear for their 'native' or unchosen countries then i think it'll be the worse thing to happen to Pacific Islands Rugby. Players who are coming out of Samoa are loyal to Samoa. Players in the past, like un-famous Frank Bunce played for Samoa before playing for the AB's. That's fine. AB's launched him onto the international arena. But the other way around just stunts player development, but to have these 'retired' players in the national set-up isn't a bad thing if it's co-ordinated.

The ideal solution in my mind is that in a game, only 3 of these 'retired' players can be playing at any one time. So Samoa could field Jerry Collins, Casey Laulala and Chris Masoe. This would give more competition for places in the side. But the same issue remains. For this to really work, Samoa need a Super Rugby team, which would be full of players like Masoe, Collins, Laulala etc who are wanting to play genuinely for Samoa/the Islands rather than chasing the cash in Europe, namely.. the TOP14 and being uncapped.

SRU have said they have no plans to enter Super Rugby franchises for a good few years.. but they WERE invited by Sanzar ready for 2012 if i recall. So having Jerry Collins available is a nonsense, because his club won't release him like any other samoan national team player in time anyway. Realistically, it'd be some gay cameo at the RWC 2011.

So, i don't see a day where Jerry Collins would be any more 'useful' to Samoa than say, Castre's star, Joe Tekori.. because as good as he'd be, he's largely unpickable due to club obligations.

Capische?

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

I still belive that if Samoa, Tonga and Fiji played together instead of as the Pacific Islanders, then they would be in the Top #3 teams in the world.

 

[RC]

Then why didn't they get anywhere near the top #3 when they were individual teams?